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    • you have acknowledged the claim on MCOL [AOS]?? and sent a CPR 31:14?   your defence is due Friday by 4pm
    • so this was a windscreen PCN for the driver walking off the site?   scan up all the paperwork you have had to date and ignored to date  including the front page of the letter of claim and the windscreen ticket.   you've been here long enough and have known about this PCN long enough to have read cag to conclude you should  NOT to have ignored the letter of claim    
    • I know it was over a year ago, but can you remember what you purchased and the name of the shop?  Even if you paid by cash, purchases can still be tracked down. 
    • It's been a while since I had my head in this subject area, but Carey v HSBC was based on determining what the creditor could do to fulfill their obligations when issued with a s.77/78 request by the debtor. It determined that a reconstituted agreement would satisfy the request, so long as it was a true copy. It does not mean the agreement is enforceable if put before the courts. The debtor could, if provided with a recon, decide to accept it and carry on as normal, or dispute it (and potentially withhold payments until the dispute is resolved - if ever).   You are in the position of disputing the recon as being properly executed (amongst other things), which is now at the stage of being put before the court to resolve. Your protection is s.127(3) of the CCA 1974 (repealed in April 2006), which states:   s.127 (3)The court shall not make an enforcement order under section 65(1) if section 61(1)(a) (signing of agreements) was not complied with unless a document (whether or not in the prescribed form and complying with regulations under section 60(1)) itself containing all the prescribed terms of the agreement was signed by the debtor or hirer (whether or not in the prescribed manner).   The above is what makes a recon unenforceable in your case - but, you need to make a positive assertion to that effect. Whilst DX says Carey is not applicable, I think it's relevant. It explains the role of a recon in law, and it also explains what a properly executed credit agreement looks like, to the extent that could be declared enforceable by an order of the court. It also confirms that the creditor can continue to attempt collection of the debt, but they have no means of recourse through the courts. I would certainly be quoting Carey in support of an assertion that the claimant's recon is unenforceable, and s.127(3) prevents the court from making an enforcement order where s.61(1) was not complied with - as appears to be the case. You will need to spell it out for the court within your statement though. If the claimant is relying on their recon as evidence of their compliance of s.61(1)a then they fail comprehensively due to... (list the points) ...look up what the required prescribed terms are and list them as not being present (the text cannot be read, so they cannot be said to exist on the agreement), and also that all the terms are not contained within the one document (Carey case goes into this in some detail).   You can also throw in your other points relating to the balance and reference numbers, default notice, etc. Pull their case apart with as many arguments as you can. Explain why certain things are needed for the claim to succeed and how the claimant's case does not stack up on those points. Force the claimant to defeat your arguments with appropriate proof/evidence. Cast doubt in every direction you can, but properly support your arguments.   Hope this helps.
    • Am I right in thinking your brother is the keeper of the vehicle, and so VCS are suing him - but you were driving on the day?  In your first post you wrote "I received a PCN" but did you really mean your brother did?   if so, you can prepare the paperwork in his name if you want, and a decent defence later on will probably lead Simple Simon of VCS to wet himself and give in (if you look through the forum, there are very recent examples of this).   However, in the unlikely event that VCS go all the way to court, it will be your brother appearing, so it'd be a good idea if he too started to learn the legal procedure and how to beat these fleecers.
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TommyP

Car locked in a private Pay & Display Car Park

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Hi

 

Earlier this evening at 5:55 pm I returned to a private Pay & Display car park to retrieve my vehicle

 

only to find the whole car park secured, locked up with no one in sight.

 

The usual closing time is 7pm however there was signs stating that on Sundays, the car park closes at 6pm,

 

as such every effort was made by my self to make it back on time.

 

Another notable sign warns of possible lock ins, word for word it reads:

 

This car park will be locked at 7:00 pm each night. Anybody with a car still left on these premises at this time will not be able to gain access until 8 am the following morning.

 

I was unable to find an office number or even a company name to try and contact them

 

I went into a shop facing and asked the lady if she knew the owners.

Unfortunately she didn't, but she did say she'd back me up that I was there at 5 to 6.

 

At that point I pretty much admitted defeat and began the long train journey home.

 

Tomorrow morning I have to get there early to retrieve my vehicle and try not be too late for work.

 

They're going to expect me to pay for the parking plus a £10 overnight charge,

I have no intention of paying either of them.

 

My questions are, where do I stand in this stance?

Particularly if they refuse to open the barrier,

 

am I legally obliged to pay anything and are they legally allowed to prevent me from exiting?

 

I'd also like to make a complaint, would it be worthwhile contacting the council or is there a particular organisation I could contact?

 

Feeling really distraught so any advice would be greatly appreciated.

 

Thanks!

 

Tommy

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the gates will be open anyhow surely

 

you should just be able to drive out.

 

can we confirm this IS PRIVATE

 

who's the company or is it not signed at all?

 

you seem to know it well

 

dx


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Sorry I said it was pay and display but they actually give you a ticket as you go in and you pay at the window and they open the barrier as you drive out.

 

There's signs for costs and the one I mentioned but there's no logo or name on any of them, even the ticket is unbranded. Also I know for certain it's not one of the council's.

 

Cheers

Tommy

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they cant hold you to ransome no .

 

ofcourse you normally obv pay anyhow

else you canrt escape

 

so your only iss is the £10.

 

dx


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It's not automated like the Q Park etc, it's just a manned booth next to the exit who you pay and he lets you out, except tomorrow he's not getting a penny but things will intensify if he refuses to open the barrier and I just want to know where I stand legally.

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IMHO

 

the fact of the matter still exists that you 'owe'

for your parking yesterday.

 

refusing to pay that, because someone went home early

is not the way to go about complaining.

 

dx


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IMHO

 

the fact of the matter still exists that you 'owe'

for your parking yesterday.

 

refusing to pay that, because someone went home early

is not the way to go about complaining.

 

dx

 

You may be right but the way I see it, the contract I agreed to when parking there was breached when they didn't offer the service I agreed to.

 

I maybe way off the mark but as furious as I am they're not getting a penny, they've cost me enough through travel costs and missing an hours work tomorrow.

 

My only concern is if they have a right to refuse to let me out and then what my options would be then. I guess it's pretty late on here for a reply from a legal guru, I'll give 101 a call in the morning.

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101?

 

they wont help if you meanthe police non emergency thing.

 

the 'contract' is with the landowner NOT the parking company

though could the 2 be the same.

t

hey certainly dont have the rights to impound you or stop you from leaving.

 

i think you'll find you'll get a darn sight more back

if you latterly gather, as you have, you evidence

you costs because their [in]actions

 

you'll prob get a refund and an apology , that could be financial as well.

 

the guy on the gate is not your target and p'haps not the person to enforce anything either

 

just remember also

it might not be the same guy that went home early either.

 

i doubt there is any legal basis for them to charge you a 'storage fee'

 

as they didn't provide or had to provide any

additional service 'because' your car was there overnight.

 

type in the name of the car park in yahoo

 

you'l soon find out who this lot are

 

and if they own the land i bet.

 

dx


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Some brilliant advise there ^

 

As an ex car park attendant for a local council I couldn't agree more with the opinion above that the guy on the gate shouldn't be your target.

 

I doubt very much that calling the police will provide you with any other answers. They'll tell you to take it up with the car park operators.

 

It definitely needs bringing to the car park operators attention that there is no signage or no contact number in case of an emergency. I know that all the car parks in my area (that are gated and locked over night) have signs on each gate with a contact number on.

 

Do you know if yours was the only vehicle locked in overnight? Could you see other cars on the car park when attempting to return for your car?

 

I'd suggest. Approach the attendant tomorrow and explain what happened. Advise him/her that due to the opening hours not being adhered to this has caused you considerable distress and cost you financially and you'd like the correct details and contact details of whom to make an official complaint to.

 

Although you don't want to pay tomorrow (I totally understand how royally p'eed off you are) I would simply pay (ensure you get a receipt or advise the attendant that you need to keep hold of the ticket) and make your complaints after. If you fail to pay this could cause unnecessary problems... If not with or for the attendant, a queue of cars behind you at the barrier - I wouldn't be too impressed sat waiting behind a car because the driver refuses to pay.

 

Please, keep us informed. Some serious complaints DO need to be made. A mother and a small child (for example) could in future return to their car to find the car park locked in the future if a correct procedure for after hours parking (or in your unfortunate case an eager to go home car park attendant went home early) isn't displayed clearly.

 

Regards

 

BM


It never rains but it pours...

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Difficult to know what to do but I think personally I would queue at barrier, refuse to pay, forming a queue!

 

Good luck!

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Isn't it now an offence to prevent someone from leaving a private property such as a car park? I think it is something to do with holding them against their will etc. The attendant can be invited to make a note of the reg number ans this should be enough to allow the driver to go on their way. I don't think youa re obliged to supply any personal details.

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Just to update - I went straight to the booth to find a different attendant, I asked him what happened to the lad last night locking down early and leaving me stranded, he replied "I don't know I wasn't here, have you got a ticket?" I gave him the ticket and began explaining the amount of hassle/grief it had caused but he wasn't interested and then without apology, as though it was a familiar situation simply said I can go without paying.

 

I had a lot of questions for him but never got round to asking any, I was just relieved to be getting my car back and getting out of there as soon as.

 

I did a lot of searching last night but was unable to find anything on the car park, I know from memory that it's been there for at least 4 years but it suspiciously doesn't seem to have any foot print at all. If anyone would like to have a look it's situated on Bolton Street, Liverpool - just yards from the national train station Lime Street.

 

I'm happy to have my car back but I'd still like to register a complaint to help prevent this from happening to someone perhaps more vulnerable than myself, as Bombaymix mentioned.

 

Thanks for all the replies.

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IMHO

 

the fact of the matter still exists that you 'owe'

for your parking yesterday.

 

refusing to pay that, because someone went home early

is not the way to go about complaining.

 

dx

 

It's not listed on there.

 

I looked at a few similar sites and local business directories but couldn't find anything for a car park on Bolton Street. In fact the only trace I could find was of the images on google maps/street view.

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urm

 

i wonder if its registered or it fly be night

 

dx


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Just came across this.

 

If you have a witness who will confirm that the car park was locked early and is willing to make a statement to that effect, you may have a claim for your consequential losses. Basically they are in breach of contract if you paid for parking until 6pm and they failed in their part by closing at 5.55pm.

 

If there is no business details on their tickets (they are legally obliged to have their details on any receipt or ticket they issue), you should contact trading standards via CAB.

 

You would need to write a formal letter of complaint to the car park operator/owner detailing your losses (travel and loss of earnings etc) due to their operative closing early. Invite them to refund your losses within 14 days from the date of your letter or you will consider making a claim in the small claims court which will potentially cost them additional costs.

 

Please keep us posted as this is an interesting one.


Please Note

 

The advice I offer will be based on the information given by the person needing it. All my advice is based on my experiences and knowledge gained in working in the motor and passenger transport industries in various capacities. Although my advice will always be sincere, it should be used as guidence only.

 

I would always urge to seek face to face professional advice for clarification prior to taking any action.

 

Please click my reputation 'star' button at the bottom of my profile window on the left if you found my advice useful.

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They closed early so they breached the parking contract established by buying the ticket so you have no liability. You may need a properly attested witness statement.

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