Revenue Protection Issue

[Clockwork2]

Hello, I've been reading this site and i've seen some excellent, helpful, non judgemental advice given here by some of the members .

 

Someone I know was approached by a revenue protection officer recently. They have no defence and basically admitted they were in the wrong and know they have to pay the price. They've been offered a settlement sum, which includes a £100 admin fee, prior to the issue of an Intent to Prosecute letter.

 

They clearly want to resolve the problem as soon as possible. Should I suggest they just pay at once in order to get it cleared up? I don't think i've seen anything on here where anyone was told a figure until after they had returned their MG11.

 

Many thanks.

Edited November 18, 2012 by Clockwork2

[honeybee13]

Hello and welcome to CAG.

 

Was this offer to settle received by letter or at the time please? And do you know what the settlement figure comprises apart from the admin fee?

 

My best, HB

[Clockwork2]

Not by letter, nothing in writing at all. It was during a telephone conversation the next day. I understand the total amount is about £350. I can check if you need more information.

[honeybee13]

Hello again and thank you for that.

 

I don't think I've come across this before. Did the person you spoke to have the details or do you think it was a general conversation? I'm of the understanding that the next day, the office wouldn't normally have information on the case.

 

In any case, if it were me I would want to see it in writing before handing over money.

 

This is definitely about a rail fare, is it?

 

HB

[markl1987]

Evening

 

Does sound a little unusual for it to have been dealt with in this way so far, is there anymore to the story? Usual thing to happen is spoken to under caution and the MG11 filled out and signed for by the RPO and passenger. Did all of that happen? And, Which TOC are you dealing with?

 

Would be helpful if you can find out all the information and give a step by step account.

 

I wouldn't pay anything until you have something in writing and at least a reference number for your case so that it can be traced and looked into in future if necessary.

[Clockwork2]

Ok i'll check the details. I know it's not a rail fare but traveling in first class without a first class ticket. There was a conversation under caution and that person gave the phone number, saying call them tomorrow.

[honeybee13]

Hello again and thank you for the additional information.

 

Is there any chance your friend could sign up and tell us the story himself? Its very kind of you to help your friend, but having a middle person always slows things down and sometimes facts get lost in the translation.

 

I hope you'll find other forums that might be of interest to you anyway, it's a wide ranging site.

 

HB

[Old-CodJA]

I would certainly ask the actual traveller concerned not to part with any money until they have confirmation from the rail company concerned that report has been made and I certainly would not contact the reporting Inspector / RPO or wahtever with payment in hand at their request.

 

As HB says, get your friend to post for themselves and to be open and honest, but not reveal any information from which he can be identified.

[Clockwork2]

I really appreciate the advice. The person concerned is a close family member and absolutely terrified of what could happen next, particularly as the person they spoke to put huge emphasis on them losing their job if convicted. I do have more information I've now made lots of notes, but as you have said OC its difficult to say very much without fear of being identified. The last thing I would want to do is make the situation worse.

Edited November 18, 2012 by Clockwork2

[Old-CodJA]

I really appreciate the advice. The person concerned is a close family member and absolutely terrified of what could happen next, particularly as the person they spoke to put huge emphasis on them losing their job if convicted. I do have more information I've now made lots of notes, but as you have said OC its difficult to say very much without fear of being identified. The last thing I would want to do is make the situation worse.

 

Unfortunately, without information that identifies the alleged offence, it does not need name, date, place or any reference numbers, but does need to explain the allegation, then there is virtually nothing any of us can do to help.

 

The one thing I will say is that sending any payment to anyone without documentary evidence of what it is for would be foolhardy in the extreme in my view.

 

It is certainly not the remit of individual rail staff to say "You've been nicked and you've admitted your guilt, but if you contact me and pay £ xx then that will be the end of the matter and we will not need to send you a letter", which is what your post appears to suggest.

 

If I were managing a team who undertook to do things that way I would be having a pretty quick turnover of staff I guess. Where is the audit trail for you and them?

Edited November 19, 2012 by Old-CodJA

[Clockwork2]

OC, thank you, I completely agree with your advice. You are essentially right in your interpretation of what I am saying.

 

I did find a post from a year ago on another forum which mentions the same person.

 

I advise you call 2 weeks after being cautioned as that's how long it takes for the officer to submit his report. The number for the office is: *****- The best gentleman to speak to there is *****, PM me for his mobile number (it's unfair on him to advertise it on the net so I'll only give it to those who need it the most). Best of luck, and remember, call ASAP and apologise for making the mistake and let them know how you're preventing the problem from happening again in the future You will get charged the fare and their costs (up to £50 I believe). Hope this helps!

[honeybee13]

Hello again.

 

I'm not sure what you're asking by posting the information from the other site. But I don't think you're going to get any further with this one until you know the offence, reference number and the name of the person in the office dealing with the case.

 

We always advise people to wait until the reference arrives.

 

As OC says, you could tell us more about what happened without dates or place names for now. Do you know which rail company it is?

 

HB

[Old-CodJA]

OC, thank you, I completely agree with your advice. You are essentially right in your interpretation of what I am saying.

 

I did find a post from a year ago on another forum which mentions the same person.

 

 

I would certainly guard against referring to old, inaccurate, or misleading information.

 

There is NO blanket option of paying a fee to avoid prosecution for an allegation of 'breach of Byelaw' or 'avoidance of fare' applicable to any of the constituent members of The Association of Train Operating Companies.

 

Each case is dealt with on merit. Please do not confuse being reported on an MG11 statement with Penalty Fares legislation, which is a civil remedy in relation to some instances of ticket-less travel

Edited November 19, 2012 by Old-CodJA

[Old-CodJA]

I know it's not a rail fare but traveling in first class without a first class ticket. QUOTE]

 

If the traveller was given an opportunity to move and simply refused to move to standard class accomodation, this is a breach of National Railway Byelaw 19 and carries a maximum penalty for a first offence of a fine of up to £1000

 

If the traveller refused to pay the appropriate fare it could be charged under Section 5 of The Regulation of Railways Act (1889) and carries a similar penalty, but is a more serious charge.

Edited November 19, 2012 by Old-CodJA

[wtlh]

I got a feeling from reading the posts that whoever your friend/family had spoken to was trying to undercut the company by offering your friend a chance to bribe him, so that he won't file a report.

 

This is how I read from the information you have provided. Feels dodgy. A proper RPI should never had given the passenger his own number or any number which claims to offer quick settlements... And any out of court settlement is only relevant after the RPI had filed his/her report to the prosecutors and a case has been setup with proper case IDs and the prosecutors had decided to proceed with prosecution. At that stage your friend should have already received a formal letter with case ID from the prosecutors informing them their intention to prosecute and invite them to write his/her version of events.

 

The person concerned is a close family member and absolutely terrified of what could happen next, particularly as the person they spoke to put huge emphasis on them losing their job if convicted.

 

This line looks particularly dodgy, it almost as seemed the person is trying to coerce your friend to hand over the money. And it is definitely not the kind of practice normal RPI and TOC prosecutors would do. Actually it is usually the other way around, it is your friend who would need to convince the prosecutors that he/she would lose their job if convicted and use this as a mitigation in the attempt to ask the prosecutors to consider out of court settlement.

 

The dilemma is of course if your friend ignores the offer, the said person may actually file a very negative report (if he is actually a RPI), and it is not guaranteed that the actual prosecutors may agree to settle out of court. But I guess if your friend could obtain any evidences of such contacts with that person it could be used as grounds for prejudice which could potentially invalidate any evidence provided by the person and hence the case.

Edited November 27, 2012 by wtlh