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    • you have acknowledged the claim on MCOL [AOS]?? and sent a CPR 31:14?   your defence is due Friday by 4pm
    • so this was a windscreen PCN for the driver walking off the site?   scan up all the paperwork you have had to date and ignored to date  including the front page of the letter of claim and the windscreen ticket.   you've been here long enough and have known about this PCN long enough to have read cag to conclude you should  NOT to have ignored the letter of claim    
    • I know it was over a year ago, but can you remember what you purchased and the name of the shop?  Even if you paid by cash, purchases can still be tracked down. 
    • It's been a while since I had my head in this subject area, but Carey v HSBC was based on determining what the creditor could do to fulfill their obligations when issued with a s.77/78 request by the debtor. It determined that a reconstituted agreement would satisfy the request, so long as it was a true copy. It does not mean the agreement is enforceable if put before the courts. The debtor could, if provided with a recon, decide to accept it and carry on as normal, or dispute it (and potentially withhold payments until the dispute is resolved - if ever).   You are in the position of disputing the recon as being properly executed (amongst other things), which is now at the stage of being put before the court to resolve. Your protection is s.127(3) of the CCA 1974 (repealed in April 2006), which states:   s.127 (3)The court shall not make an enforcement order under section 65(1) if section 61(1)(a) (signing of agreements) was not complied with unless a document (whether or not in the prescribed form and complying with regulations under section 60(1)) itself containing all the prescribed terms of the agreement was signed by the debtor or hirer (whether or not in the prescribed manner).   The above is what makes a recon unenforceable in your case - but, you need to make a positive assertion to that effect. Whilst DX says Carey is not applicable, I think it's relevant. It explains the role of a recon in law, and it also explains what a properly executed credit agreement looks like, to the extent that could be declared enforceable by an order of the court. It also confirms that the creditor can continue to attempt collection of the debt, but they have no means of recourse through the courts. I would certainly be quoting Carey in support of an assertion that the claimant's recon is unenforceable, and s.127(3) prevents the court from making an enforcement order where s.61(1) was not complied with - as appears to be the case. You will need to spell it out for the court within your statement though. If the claimant is relying on their recon as evidence of their compliance of s.61(1)a then they fail comprehensively due to... (list the points) ...look up what the required prescribed terms are and list them as not being present (the text cannot be read, so they cannot be said to exist on the agreement), and also that all the terms are not contained within the one document (Carey case goes into this in some detail).   You can also throw in your other points relating to the balance and reference numbers, default notice, etc. Pull their case apart with as many arguments as you can. Explain why certain things are needed for the claim to succeed and how the claimant's case does not stack up on those points. Force the claimant to defeat your arguments with appropriate proof/evidence. Cast doubt in every direction you can, but properly support your arguments.   Hope this helps.
    • Am I right in thinking your brother is the keeper of the vehicle, and so VCS are suing him - but you were driving on the day?  In your first post you wrote "I received a PCN" but did you really mean your brother did?   if so, you can prepare the paperwork in his name if you want, and a decent defence later on will probably lead Simple Simon of VCS to wet himself and give in (if you look through the forum, there are very recent examples of this).   However, in the unlikely event that VCS go all the way to court, it will be your brother appearing, so it'd be a good idea if he too started to learn the legal procedure and how to beat these fleecers.
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ElmoFireUp

Bought a used car from a dealer and told them within 24 hours that I want my money back

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On the 14th of November I purchased a 2007 Mazda 6 Sport 2.0L Diesel (143bhp) from a car dealership. On the day of purchase I drove the car away and found that there was no power being produced by the car and it struggled to get up to 80mph. At first I thought maybe I was imagining the problem so I put it to the test. The listed 0 to 62mph of the car is 9.5 seconds so I tried this and could only manage 21 seconds so right there and then I knew it was broken.

 

When I got home I emailed the dealership telling them it was broken and that I would like my money back as the dealership is 65 miles away and would be a nightmare to get home from using public transport. I told them I was not happy and wanted a refund. They told me that I could not have a refund and that I must allow them to try and fix it. Reluctantly I agreed as I have been getting conflicting advice on what my rights are. So I asked if they would be able to give me a loan car while the car was being looked at to which they replied no we do not give loan cars. They have offered me no help what so ever and I have been left without a car for who knows how long.

 

So the next day I drove the broken car the 65 miles back to them. The salesman agreed to take me to the train station in the Mazda. As soon as he started driving it he said it is definitely broken. I then had to catch 4 trains home at a cost of £30 and 4 hours. So anyway the salesman assured me that the car was booked into a local garage for 9am the following day and that he would call me as soon as the garage had diagnosed the problem. The whole day passed with no contact from the salesman so at 5pm I rang him. He told me that the garage could not identify the problem and that an auto electrician was going to take a look the following day (Saturday). This further annoyed me as I have had to call them at extra cost to me when he promised he would call me.

 

I did a little research and I found some info on the Trading Standards website stating that I don't have to accept the offer of repair and that I can reject the car. So I emailed the dealer stating my position again and they emailed back saying they will let know when the auto electrician has looked at the car. So this morning (Saturday) they told me the auto electrician could not find a problem with the car and that an "expert" was going to look at it on Monday. They said I could not have my money back again. I had a big argument with the owner of the company but we got nowhere.

 

This is causing me a great deal of stress.

 

Not once have they offered me any kind of assistance or compensation. The car is clearly broken and was that way when I bought it. They will not budge on their position so I need to know what I can do. What are my rights and what can legally be done to reject the car? Do I need to let them try and fix it? Or can I just demand my money back?

 

I have been told by various sources that because I asked for a refund straight away then the dealer should have given me one. He has bullied me into repairing the car.

 

Hopefully someone will know the exact things I need to to know.

 

Thanks for your help guys!

Edited by ElmoFireUp

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As a matter of interest, is the dealer in the Cotswolds?

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You are right and are entitled to reject the car.

As you have returned the vehicle already I would email / write making a formal rejection of the car under the sale of goods act.

Do not be foobed off. Do not accept the car back.

Give them a period of 7 to 14 days to refund.

Dont get into an argumment about it. Soga is on your side.

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You are right and are entitled to reject the car.

As you have returned the vehicle already I would email / write making a formal rejection of the car under the sale of goods act.

Do not be foobed off. Do not accept the car back.

Give them a period of 7 to 14 days to refund.

Dont get into an argumment about it. Soga is on your side.

 

Under SOGA the dealer has the right of repair, replacement or refund so the dealer is acting correctly and it may be too soon to demand a refund. However a written letter in the meantime rejecting the vehicle may help put pressure on the dealer to resolve the problem. Remember the dealer may have had no knowledge of the problem with the vehicle when they sold it onto you in good faith so you need to give them about 14 days to resolve the fault. After that you can pursue them for a refund plus any costs, however the additional costs, i.e. road tax, insurance etc may have to be a separate claim to the refund.

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Hi. Thanks for the replies. But again this has left me with 2 conflicting views. I do not want the car and do not want them to fix it. 2 different sets of experts have already looked at the car and cannot diagnose the problem so what difference is a 3rd going to make? I just want my money back. Surely the fact I have told them this writing (email) numerous times should be enough? If it says in the SOGA that I can return the car within a certain time then I don't have to let them repair it? Thanks again.

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Under SOGA unfortunately you have to give them the opportunity of a repair first within a reasonable time. I think the vehicle may need to go to a franchised dealer for the repair. Although email is helpful producing copies in court may not always resolve the issue which is why a registered letter rejecting the vehicle is better.

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That's where have an issue. If they get it fixed, then I go to pick it up which is 65 miles away and a real pigs ear to get to via trains (4 changes totaling 4 hours) then if it messes up again Iv'e got to go through the same thing again. It's far to much hassle and I don't have the time to be wasting. The views from various sources that I have had so far are about a 50/50 split with one half saying they can repair it and the other saying I can just get my money back straight away. Even the Trading Standards website says that I can get my money back without allowing them to do a repair so I am inclined to believe the website as they make the law! It is really driving me nuts! I will call the Trading Standards on the phone tomorrow and consult my solicitor but it's costing me more and more money every day that passes. It will cost them nothing to refund my money and then sell the car again as it's already with them. If I have to fetch it's yet more money and more time with simply no guarantee that the car won't break down again. I don't understand whay so many people have so many different opinions on the matter. The law needs ramping up to make things more clear cut in my opinion.

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Trading Standards do not make the law. They only enforce it. Please update is with the response from TS? Thanks.

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From Trading Standards,

 

"When you buy a used vehicle from a trader you are making a legally binding contract. You have legal rights against the trader under the Sale of Goods Act 1979 and the Sale and Supply of Goods to Consumers Regulations 2002.

The vehicle should be:

 

- Of a satisfactory quality - free from minor defects, safe and durable for a reasonable length of time. When assessing satisfactory quality you should take into account price, age and condition at the time of sale.

 

- Fit for its intended purpose or a purpose that you made known to the trader

 

- As described - the vehicle should correspond with any description applied to it. In some circumstances, the trader may be liable for any statement made by the manufacturer of the goods.

 

If the vehicle was faulty at the time of sale, you are legally entitled to request one of the following remedies:

 

a full refund

compensation (damages)

repair or replacement

rescission or reduction in price

You can find more information about these rights in the 'Buying goods - your rights' leaflet.Â

 

When you buy as a consumer from a trader, your legal rights cannot be taken away or changed. An attempt to do so is a notice such as 'sold as seen' - a trader making such a statement is trying to deny responsibility for any defects. This is against the law so report it to Citizens Advice for investigation by trading standards. If you are given a guarantee or warranty, it is  in addition to your legal rights and should not replace them. You can find more information in our leaflet 'Guarantees and warranties'.

 

If you have bought a vehicle from a trader, which turns out to be faulty or you think has been misdescribed, you need to take action straight away.

 

If you have only had the vehicle for a very short time, have only driven a few miles and you discover a major problem, you are probably entitled to reject it and get your money back plus the return of a 'traded in' vehicle if there was one, or its value if it has been disposed of.

 

If you decide to reject the vehicle, stop using it and contact the trader. Make it clear that you wish to reject it. You can accept a repair for a major fault but this won't stop you claiming a refund if the repair turns out to be unsatisfactory. It is best to make your position clear before any repair is attempted.

 

The law only allows you a short time to reject the vehicle before, in the legal sense, you have 'accepted' it. This means that you have had the vehicle long enough to establish it is satisfactory, or that you have told the trader that you have accepted it. Only a court can make a decision on this point and would take all relevant factors into account.

 

So dealers must describe the car accurately and must not say that the car is a good runner if it isn't. Under the Trade Descriptions Act the car must be accurately described to you, whether it is in conversation, or a newspaper advertisement, otherwise the Office of Fair Trading can take out a criminal prosecution

 

If a customer rejects a faulty vehicle within this "reasonable" period, they are entitled to ask for their money back and maybe compensation to cover costs (consequential damages)."

 

All of the above is from the Trading Standards themselves and as far as I can make out I can return the car and get my money back.

 

Thanks.

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Please note the following;

 

If the vehicle was faulty at the time of sale, you are legally entitled to request one of the following remedies:

 

a full refund

compensation (damages)

repair or replacement

rescission or reduction in price

You can find more information about these rights in the 'Buying goods - your rights' leaflet.Â

 

You can request, but cannot demand. At time of sale,as per SOGA, the goods conformed to contract as you accepted them and were able to drive away in the vehicle. Before continuing debating the point, can I suggest you contact TS first and then update us.

 

 

I am not trying to be obstructive, just trying to make you aware as I have been down that route although it was not with a car.

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You are entitled to reject the vehicle for a short period after the sale. If you leave it too late then you will have deemed to have acepted it and will have to go down the route of repair/ refund blah blah. As this isnot the case then you can( and have by the looks of it) reject the car.

 

All you have to do is make a written demand doing so.

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I have just received a reply from The Citizens Advice and they have said that I can reject the car. The fact that I told the dealer I wanted to reject it right away has made it so I can get a refund. The only thing Citizens Advice have said is that will probably have to write an actual letter not an email. I have sent a formal email to the dealer saying I am rejecting the car and given them 14 days to pay which so I am told is the legal amount of time they have. I expect to hear from the dealer tomorrow and if they still refuse to give me a refund then I am going to have no choice but to instruct a solicitor to commence legal proceedings against them.

 

The only reason I can think of that they are refusing a refund is that they must know the car is totally nackered. It would be no hassle to them to refund the money and then put the car back on there forecourt. Why would they risk legal action, bad press (which I intend to do), all the hassle it will cause them? The only reason is that they know the car is kaput! It has to be.

 

Let's see what they say tomorrow. Guaranteed that they refuse. They seem like the sort of people who will never admit they are wrong until the last possible chance.

 

I will go all the way if I have to!

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Questions, questions, questions.

Did you not notice the lack of performance when road testing prior to purchase?

Did you research the Mazda6 diesel prior to purchase?(this site has had a few very nasty stories about this model)

Why do you say the car is broken when it has covered at least 130mls garage to garage?

When you initially informed the garage of your concerns, what did you expect the trader to do?

Why buy a car so far from home, instead of your local sources?

I'm very sorry if the above sounds negative but on reading the posts i cannot but help thinking that there is a fair degree of "Buyers Remorse" going on here.

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Questions, questions, questions.

Did you not notice the lack of performance when road testing prior to purchase?

Did you research the Mazda6 diesel prior to purchase?(this site has had a few very nasty stories about this model)

Why do you say the car is broken when it has covered at least 130mls garage to garage?

When you initially informed the garage of your concerns, what did you expect the trader to do?

Why buy a car so far from home, instead of your local sources?

I'm very sorry if the above sounds negative but on reading the posts i cannot but help thinking that there is a fair degree of "Buyers Remorse" going on here.

 

At the time i bought it it was rush hour and the roads were jam packed so could not get the car above 30 mph so could not get a good test of it.

If you are going to suggest that Mazda 6 turbo diesels are just slow by nature then how do you explain the fact that it has lost 11.5 seconds from it's it's 0 to 62mph time? No car in the world would lose this much power in 5 years!!

The car is drivable but not as described. it does not work properly as it is supposed to. It is listed as having 143BHP. By my calculations it is running at somewhere between 80 and 89BHP so therefore it is "broken"

I expected the dealer to give me a refund like I asked for and am entitled to.

It makes no difference how far away you purchase something from!! That's like saying if I live in London and buy a car from the north of Scotland then the dealer is exempt from his legal obligations. Ridiculous!!

 

As I have said before the only possible reason for them not refunding the money is that they must know the car is nackered. For the amount of hassle all this is going to cause both parties it would much easier for them to just refund the money.

 

Even after everything I have wrote to them they still probably wont refund the money. The last I hear from them another "expert" was taking a look at the car today. If he finds nothing wrong then will they concede it is nackered? Or will they say 3 people have looked at and can find nothing wrong therefore there is nothing wrong?

I have already proved that it is not working properly through the 0 to 62mph comparison I did with the Astra.

 

I'm looking forward to there phone call today so i can see what ridiculous response/excuses I get this time!!

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It sounds like a turbo fault to me, a hole in the charge cooler, perhaps...

 

Either way, my father runs a 6 Diesel TS model on a 57 plate and it's been nothing but joy (Apart from the AC not working).

 

Wait for them to diagnose and fix first, then come back if it's not right.

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Just been on the phone to the Citizens Advice Consumer Helpline and they inform me that I am indeed correct. This is what they say:

 

"Under current legislation relating to the Sale Of Goods Act 1979 I am entitled to one of the following remedies when buying a faulty car from a dealer:

 

Refund

Repair

Replace

 

If I ask for a refund the dealer can offer me a repair but If I refuse then the dealer must refund the money.

The fact the dealer has tried to bully me into believing that they are entitled to make me accept the repairs is illegal."

 

So I have issued a formal letter outlining the facts and that I want my money back.

I have a case number from The CAB who say they are more than happy to back me up and give the dealers details to Trading Standards.

 

I GUARANTEE that the dealer will try and say that I am wrong!

 

There is literally nothing else I can do now. I have the backing of the CAB and Trading Standards so what else can I do?

 

If the dealer STILL won't accept this then how on Earth am I supposed to proceed?

 

It's crazy!!

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The Mazda6 diesel is far from slow but the other posters on this site had horrendous problems with engine management if i remenber correctly. Mazda and VX have a problem with engine running on and can't be stopped.

What i couldn't fathom out was that you obviously fancied the Mazda6 or you wouldn't have gone such a long way to get one. At the first sign of trouble you consistently shout "Refund", and i don't know why you still don't want the car if all the faults are rectified. Have you found out something else about the car which makes you just want to get shot of it?

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Obviously I like the car otherwise I wouldn't have paid £4000.00 for it.

The reason I am wanting to return the car for a refund is quite simply I do not like being lied to. From the start they have told me that I have to let them carry out a repair before they refund the money. This is simply not the case. They can offer a repair but if I refuse then they have to refund my money. This they have denied and lied about all along right up until I slapped them with a case number from CAB confirming this. They are STILL trying to get out of it!! No matter what I do they try and say I have accepted a repair even though I only accepted it after the fact which counts for nothing! They will never admit defeat.

 

The last thing they have said is if the car is not fixed and ready for collection by Friday then they will refund the money which I have in writing. But up to yet 2 experts have looked at the car and found nothing wrong so I don't see how it is going to be any different with a 3rd inspection. They are just clutching at straws. Really ****ing me off to be fair but I just have stay calm and carry on!

 

Another thing that has just been bought to my attention is that I can also reject the car/file a claim against the dealer under The Trade Descriptions Act. The car was sold with the description of having 143bhp. The tests I have carried out confirm the car is running less than 89bhp. So therefore they have sold the car with a misleading/inaccurate description and I should be a able to do them on this aswell.

 

I don't see how they have any other option than to refund the money now.

 

I'll GUARANTEE they sure will try though!!

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Something does not ring true here and elmo I do not think you are giving a true and relflective story. Also, CAB are not lawyers so whilst you should consider the information they have given you it is NOT sacro sanq or however it's meant to be spelt.

 

A dealer/garage would not be considered an expert either.

 

There was another case as regards a Mazda 6 on here where the owner was so cock sure of his rights and the car which went right against him. For some reason it was removed.

 

What you need to do is calm down a bit and approach in a logical fashion giving them a chance to correct at which point you can start the soga process.

 

SOGA is far from clear cut and whilst if might apply in your case it does not take into account the distance involved which has yet to be tested I believe.

 

The whole basis of uk law is based on what would a reasonable person expect from a reasonable person within the law as set and from your posts I don't think you are being reasonable.

 

As previously pointed out this could simply be something as simple as an air leak in the intercooler system to a blocked DPF which needs a forced regeneration.

 

Do as you wish however be forewarned that this issue could turn out expensive for you unless you calm down and do it properly.

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So by your reckoning a mechanic and an auto electrician are both not experts in the field of cars? I'm sure they would strongly disagree! That's like saying an electrician is not an expert is circuits or consumer units. From all the information I have been given on UK legislation from various sources I am fully within my rights to be asking for a refund as I was from the very start. The dealer has lied to me on numerous occasions which makes things worse.

 

The CAB are authorised to offer advice on current legislation on behalf of Trading Standards who enforce the law so if they don't give you the right advice then who is supposed to exactly?

 

Even if today they turn around and say no fault has been found after 3 inspections by 3 different experts it makes no difference as they have already accepted the car back as having a fault. They agreed this fact with me when I dropped it off with them after they drove it told me that yes there is definitely a problem. So if they have done nothing to the car then it must be considered that the car is in the same condition as it was when I dropped it off with them. Therefore it is still broken. Even being allowed to try and fix it they have failed and I want a refund.

 

If by some obscure chance they manage to wriggle out of it then I can file a claim under The Trade Description Act as the car was advertised as having 143bhp. The tests I have carried out confirm it is running below 89bhp. So it was wrongly advertised.

 

My very last course of action is if after today they still won't budge then I need to consult my solicitor which is going to cost yet more money and more time. I have spent enough money and wasted so much time on this it's untrue.

 

It's like I have said to the dealer why on Earth would I want to go to all this trouble? I have a business to run and I have spent the last week doing nothing but try and sort this mess out.

All I wanted to do was buy a new car and it has turned into one of the worst experiences I have had in recent years. It has put me off ever buying a used car in the future. I think I will bite the bullet and buy brand new from now on. I know buying new is really expensive and that you lose money hand over fist but at least I won't have all this trouble again (hopefully)

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No they are just north of Leeds.

 

Is it a Mazda dealer or general mongrel forecourt ?

 

Have you considered taking it to a Mazda specialist in the area ?

 

Have you made inroads into speaking with the previous owner and why they might have traded it in ?

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It is just a general dealer who sells all kinds of kinds of cars.

 

They have said a Mazda specialist has taken the car away yesterday to try and diagnose the problem.

 

Never thought about the previous owner as an option but that could be a good idea. They would certainly know about any problems that existed before the dealership took the car on. Although I don't think they would admit to giving the car to the dealer broken as that might be harmful to them. How would I go about finding this out though? Got no info on the previous owner as I don't have the V5. Come to think of it I never signed the V5 document when I bought the car so maybe that's something else?

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Just been contacted by the dealer who say they have fixed the problem.

 

A Mazda specialist has given it a software download and now it running perfectly so they say.

 

Anyone know what a software download is? Never heard of it. What difference would this make to the car? Why would it need it?

 

They are saying I have to collect the car which if it is fixed and running totally fine I will do but I have asked for them to agree to a few things first.

 

Software download sounds a bit odd to me but then again it's all been a bit odd so if anyone can tell me what this means then awesome!

 

Thanks.

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