TBI Claimform - Old HFC Loan

[gust]

Thanks Andy

 

I am writing defence further

 

 

Since it cannot be a recon - and also there is no signature and counter signature and date also these have to be present or not to be complaint (fully executed i guess?)

 

 

thanks

 

ok working on counterclaim as I have only a few days to return it

 

the unfair charges plus compound interest is worked out and straightforward - I has the spready but what would i put on the covering letter regarding this?

 

 

The PPi - should I be telling them that the previous loan that the 2nd loan refinanced had PPi too and I didnt get an early settlement figure for 1st loan. they simply lumped the full amount into the 2nd loan. I sent SAR but cannot get info on first loan as HFC said its too old and files gone.

 

If this was refinanced and both loans had PPi then the 2nd PPi would be wrong?

 

 

It was mis sold so I need to write that obviously but is there anything else that I need to put in writing with the spreadies for the counterclaim?

 

 

thanks

 

Could anyone post up a counterclaim template. For me please

 

DX,

 

for this counterclaim - is it worth saying about PPi on the first loan? as HFC didnt send any details with my SAR with this one - too old they said.

 

Since its a refinance and I didnt get an early settlement figure with the first loan - should I be putting this also in the counterclaim? Unfair relationship etc..

 

Since I got no info from HFC on first loan - will claiming on that be a waste of time?

 

cheers

[dx100uk]

i'm not up on what/what not to include regarding these issues

 

however, i would [if deemed a good idea] do it.

 

you know the 1st loan had ppi and you know what value it was refinanced for

so as a guide use the PPI PCM % from the 2nd loan [typically 13.9% of the refinance will be the PPI]

 

that will add a good deal of 'worth' to your overall reclaim figure.

the FOS allows 'guestimation', but if HFC would ever dough is another matter.

 

dx

[gust]

thanks DX

 

I have added the totals from both spreadies and put that as counterclaim amount - I was just wondering if the court would decide if they should give me something back from first loan or not? Their discretion

[dx100uk]

on the balance of prob it is obv you had a prev loan & it had PPI

 

you need to ensure you provide as much evidence as you can.

 

it would add a significant sum to your total.

 

dx

[gust]

confused...

 

Do i call TBI the first party and HFC third party?

 

ta

 

ok I have sorted counterclaim

 

this ok?

 

CASE NUMBER xxxxxxxxx PART 20 COUNTERCLAIM

 

The Defendant/Part 20 claimant claims sums paid to the claimant/part 20 defendant and HFC Bank Limited in relation to penalty charges Incorporated within the sum demanded by the Claimant which are sums claimed for their administration fees, late payment charges and like provisions.

 

The Defendant/Part 20 claimant claims sums paid to HFC Bank Limited for loan agreement xxxxxx in relation to mis-sold PPI within the sum demanded by the Claimant. The defendant did not want PPI But the salesperson insisted the loan would be declined without it.

 

Loan agreement xxxxxx was a refinance of an older loan agreement xxxxxxxx of which the defendant was mis-sold PPI Also. The defendant was told told that his application would be refused if he did not also buy a PPI policy. The defendant failed to obtain details for this agreement by way of subject access request to HFC Bank Limited as they quote that it is over six years old and no longer held on their systems. The defendant cannot determine a figure for the mis-sold PPI on loan agreement xxxxxxx so would like to ask the court to make decision on how much can be reclaimed.

 

Loan agreement xxxxxx was a refinance of loan agreement xxxxxxx but no early settlement rebate was calculated and deducted so the defendant was charged too much for the refinancing.

The defendant paid the full sum remaining of loan agreement xxxxx with no PPI rebate also, totalling £2512.40.

 

The defendant ended up with about £400 to himself from loan agreement xxxxxxx, The rest was made up of interest and PPI totalling £7535.40

 

And the defendant/Part 20 Claimant claims;

(a) the sum of £245 for unfair charges plus compound interest of 31.80%APR, totalling £1822.73

(b) PPI reclaim for agreement xxxxxx totalling £274.75.

© PPI reclaim for agreement xxxxxx, the sum to the Courts Discretion.

© Interest pursuant to section 69 of the County Courts Act 1984 at the rate of 8% per annum or up until judgement.

(d) Costs.

(e) Such further and/or other reliefs as the Court deems fit.

 

Statement of Truth

I, the Defendant believe that the facts stated in this Defence and Counterclaim are true.

Dated the xxx day of xxxxx, 2013.

 

 

 

 

 

Gust

Litigant in person

[AndyOrch]

Layout is fine Gust...you have your Defendants /Part 20 Claimants correct.......

 

Just this line you need to rethink " The defendant ended up with about £400 to himself "

 

 

Also you should finish with the last line requesting sec69 @8% interest from the date of the PPI up until judgment.(dont add it to the claim amount just show as a figure in your particulars.)

 

Regards

 

Andy

[gust]

thanks

 

so date of ppi - inception date of agreement?

 

the line to rethink - word better? or just remove?

 

It was CAB's agreement specialist who pointed the £400 out - saying it was dodgy and i was shafted pretty much

[AndyOrch]

thanks

 

so date of ppi - inception date of agreement? Yes but dont go past 6 years otherwise they will claim statute limitations and it will get messy just claim 2-3 years subject to its age.

the line to rethink - word better? or just remove? Well I dont understand it so a DJ will probably also be confused...either remove or elaborate.

 

It was CAB's agreement specialist who pointed the £400 out - saying it was dodgy and i was shafted pretty much

 

Andy

[gust]

checked spready - first payment for 2nd loan ppi july 2005 - ill have to put that I guess

 

 

ah - well if you look at the loan - its about 7K - clearing the full 1st loan as a refinance - then if you remove the ppi and interest this whole loan benefited me in settling 1st loan and once you work out the ppi and interest all i got about 400 quid out of it - so a from owing them £2512.40 originally to owing them over £7k I walked away with 400 quid in my pocket.... rest is ppi and interest. thats what i need to get across if it helps

[AndyOrch]

If its owed to you include it if not lose it.

[gust]

thanks

 

 

basically 2nd loan didn't benefit me a great deal - 400 quid really and a massive amount more owed to hfc. I needed the money badly at the time so just took it plus the figures were not really explained well to me either

 

Is this pointless me putting this in? just thought it would be an unfair relationship with them and myself? I dunno...

 

what do think? not sure how to word it really

[AndyOrch]

Its your choice if you feel its outstanding...not sure I can reword it to make sense and not complicate the claim....

[gust]

defendant owed HFC £2512 with loan 1 and after refinancing with loan 2 taking the balance to £7k he only gained £400 extra from this excersise - CAB called this "bank churn"

 

 

this is hard work (and so am i sorry) lol

 

next question

 

statements and 77A

 

the one supplied with the cca request spanned from 2005 upto 2010 in ONE document - is this compliant?

 

also the annual statements the DCA have to send you - I have only had 2 of those ever from TBI - so what breach is this?

 

thanks

[AndyOrch]

I thought you was working on the Counter Claim Gust...I have checked it and offered my advice.Others will assist if you wish to now go back to a defence.

 

Regards

 

Andy

[gust]

thanks

 

point taken

 

i will remove

 

cheers Andy

 

counterclaim filed and on time

 

I have some quick questions on compliance with statements of account for my defence.

 

the one sent back with the CCA request. its dated from 2005 upto 2010

 

is this covered by 77a?

 

cannot exceed a year per statement?

has to be signed by the O.C.?

 

because both of the above isnt done

 

 

Also the "statement given to you as required by the CCA1974 which is the annual DCA statement - I have only ever been sent TWO from TBI

 

Is this covered by 77A also?

 

thanks

 

Which track do i tick? Its over five k so fast track? Have to send allocation today. Ta

 

ok the lawyers sent reply to defence and part 20 claim...

 

1 - save insofar as the same consists of admissions or hereinafter appears, the claimant joins issue with defendant on defence

 

2 - it is denied that the claimant has failed to provide the defendant with a true copy of the credit agreement on which the claim is based puruant to the defendants request under section 77/78 of the CCA1974. the claimant provided the defendant with a copy od the said agreement under cover of a letter dated 23rd jan 2009, in addition the copy dredit agreement was attached to the POC. the said copy provided the defendant was a true copy as required under section 3 sub section (2)(b) of the consumer credit (cancellation notices & copies of documents) regulations 1983, a signed copy of the credit agreement being unavailable due to the passage of time.

 

3 - NOA blah blah was 22nd of nov 2007 and OC didnt have to notify defendant. i am not challenging NOA anyways...

 

4- in respect of para 2 of defence the agreement on which the claim is based was dated 20th may 2005, the term of which was 60 months. the said agreement was due to be repaid by 20th may 2010. in view of this there has been no requirement under the CCA1974 after this date to serve a default notice on defendant. in any event if such a notice was required a default notice was served on defendant dated 15th sept 2011 at his correct address for service.

 

5- in respect of para 3, it is denied that the claimant has failed to comply with their obligations under section 77 of the CCA1974 and repeat para 2 of this reply.

 

6 - in respect of para 4 of the defence it is denied that no such amount as claimed in paragraph 4 of the POC was owed to HFC.

 

7 - para 5 of defence is denied for the reasons set out in the POC and in this reply.

 

 

8 - para 6 of defence is denied as although there are within the sum due admin charges the charges only total the sum of £195 and such charges are reasonable.

 

9 - it is denied that defendant was mis-sold PPI on inception as alleged or at all. in any event the PPI relating was canx on or about 30th march 2007 (YEP i put in spready...)

 

 

10 - in response to para 9 and 10 of def. the claimant is entitled to claim both interest and costs in relation to any action as detailed in the T&Cs at para 3

 

 

 

defence to counteclaim

 

11 - the claimant repeats the above

 

12 - it is denied that the claimant is indebted to the defendant in the sum claimed in para (a) of part 20 claim as the total admin charges added to the balance amounted to £195 and all sums were reasonably and correctly charged to the account. In any event given the sum due and owing have not been paid by the defendant.

 

 

13 - it is denied that the defendant is entitled to interest pursuant to section 69 of the CCA1984 on the sum claimed , on any sum or at all.

 

14 - it is denied that the defendant is entitled to reclaim any PPI from claimant, any such claim should be made to HFC bank. in any event the PPI was canx on around 30th march 2007 and the sum of £545.68 credited to defendants account (YES!! it was but i still paid stuff before that and added the rebate to the spready)

 

 

OK... so the above - how do i stand?

 

 

sent off allocation and now waiting to hear back

 

 

cheers

[BRIGADIER2JCS]

Looking in as requested.

 

The recon agreement does it have the required data.

1. Your name and affdress at the inception of the agreement.

2.The Creditors name and adddress at the inception of the agreement.

3. The Ts &Cs at inception amendments made to the agreement

and the T&Cs at closure of the account..

 

Are the ''financial'' details correct interest rates etc.?

 

The section 77A statement is I think ok and is probably produced

from the ''account running files''.

 

If there is anything more specific you want me to look at let me know.

[gust]

hi brig

 

recon seems to have ok data - handwritten - no date - or sig or counter sig

 

this is what CAB agreement specialist said about it

 

"The agreement figures were difficult to make out but after going through the agreement they do all seem to match .

 

There doesn't seem to be any charges for credit within the credit figure itself but the agreement does state that the client has paid of their previous agreement from the £3k borrowed which then leaves the client with cash of approx £400. this seems to be a very low amount of money borrowed compared to the insurances added on to the loan of £1k and does raise the issue of why was the original loan settled to take out the new loan.

 

On the face of it the agreement looks correct (although the interest rates should be checked.) But I think further enquiries should be made as the loan does seem dodgy."

 

 

Statement - from OFT

 

3 DUTY TO GIVE STATEMENTS OF ACCOUNT

General

3.1 Together with the copy documents dealt with above, the creditor or

owner is obliged to give the debtor or hirer a statement of account. The

form of that statement differs depending on whether the agreement is a

fixed-sum credit agreement, a running-account credit agreement or a hire

agreement.

3.2 In all cases, the statement is to be prepared only according to the

information to which it is 'practicable' for the creditor or owner to refer.

This means practicable at the time of the request and in the OFT’s view

includes information which can be obtained from third parties.

Information may not be available because of earlier failure to take proper

steps to preserve information or, if the debt has been assigned, as a

result of making insufficient provision in the contract of assignment to

ensure the information will be available in order to respond to a request.

While this may mean that it is not practicable to refer to the information

for the purposes of these sections, it may constitute an unfair business

practice not to take steps to ensure that information is preserved and

kept available to be used to give information to the consumer.

3.3 The statement must be signed by or on behalf of the creditor or owner. this is not signed.

 

the one they gave for the CCA was 2005 to 2010 - HFC style bank statement covering that period. If they sold the debt would they still have this on their systems? (hfc)

 

the annual DCA ones - only had 2 off them ever - does this make any difference?

 

 

77a stuff - does this appy? since the statement spans more than a year?

 

77AStatements to be provided in relation to fixed-sum credit

agreementsE+W+S+N.I..[F2(1)The creditor under a regulated agreement for fixed-

sum credit must give the debtor statements under this section. .

(1A)The statements must relate to consecutive periods. .

(1B)The first such period must begin with either- .

(a)the day on which the agreement is made, or .

(b)the day the first movement occurs on the debtor's account with the creditor

relating to the agreement. .

(1C)No such period may exceed a year. .

(1D)For the purposes of subsection (1C), a period of a year which expires on a

non-working day may be regarded as expiring on the next working day. .

(1E)Each statement under this section must be given to the debtor before the

end of the period of thirty days beginning with the day after the end of the

period to which the statement relates.] .

(2)Regulations may make provision about the form and content of statements

under this section. .

(3)The debtor shall have no liability to pay any sum in connection with the

preparation or the giving to him of a statement under this section. .

(4)The creditor is not required to give the debtor any statement under this

section once the following conditions are satisfied- .

(a)that there is no sum payable under the agreement by the debtor; and .

(b)that there is no sum which will or may become so payable. .

(5)Subsection (6) applies if at a time before the conditions mentioned in

subsection (4) are satisfied the creditor fails to give the debtor- .

(a)a statement under this section within the period mentioned in subsection

[F3(1E)] ; [F4or] .

.

[F4such a statement within the period of one year beginning with the day after

the day on which such a statement was last given to him.] (6)Where this

subsection applies in relation to a failure to give a statement under this

section to the debtor- .

(a)the creditor shall not be entitled to enforce the agreement during the

period of non-compliance; .

(b)the debtor shall have no liability to pay any sum of interest to the extent

calculated by reference to the period of non-compliance or to any part of it;

and .

©the debtor shall have no liability to pay any default sum which (apart from

this paragraph)- .

(i)would have become payable during the period of non-compliance; or .

(ii)would have become payable after the end of that period in connection with

a breach of the agreement which occurs during that period (whether or not the

breach continues after the end of that period). .

(7)In this section 'the period of non-compliance' means, in relation to a

failure to give a statement under this section to the debtor, the period

which- .

(a)begins immediately after the end of the period mentioned in F5. . .

subsection (5); and .

(b)ends at the end of the day on which the statement is given to the debtor or

on which the conditions mentioned in subsection (4) are satisfied, whichever

is earlier. .

(8)This section does not apply in relation to a non-commercial agreement or to

a small agreement. .

[F6(9)This section does not apply where the holder of a current account

overdraws on the account without a pre-arranged overdraft or exceeds a pre-

arranged overdraft limit.]]

[BRIGADIER2JCS]

Hi,

1. I have to agree with the CAB on most points, but if this is a ''recon'' signatures are not required.

2. Cannot be sure what if any the lack of signature on the statement will have, but will look in to it for you.

3.Similar for the lack of annual statements.

[gust]

Can someone look over the reply to defence?

 

seem to be denying an awful lot - etc

 

I sent allocation and still havent heard anything back from the court....

[gust]

case moved to local CC now.

 

If Phillip McGuffick -v- The Royal Bank of Scotland Plc if quoted is this going to make impact?

 

still no true copy of fully executed agreement has been given to me - so would this apply or not

 

 

cheers

Edited April 15, 2013 by gust

[gust]

Hi all

 

Trial was yesterday and i lost!

 

they said that agreements prior to april 2007 DIDNT need to be a signed and executed copy and that a reconstituted agreement was compliant as the carey vs hsbc case was from an agreement from the 90's... so DID apply to my case.

 

The missing default in 2006 was denied as the judge said, well you KNEW you owed the money so denied that no default notice was a problem.

TBI sent one AFTER the agreement had time expired so the judge said there was no need for tbi to send me one anyway but they still did anyway.

 

Statements of account - was 2 years missing but the judge said so? you have just received one in the last week off tbi - so this was not allowed and was skipped over.

 

I told them about wrong amounts and TBI has to amend them. I will be paying all their expenses now too - they put £660 for the trial pack for me to pay. I said that is rather expensive for a bunch of photocopies. the judge knocked off £160 as he agreed it was too much.

 

The judge awarded them 3% stat interest and no 8%.

 

Gutted!!!

 

PS

 

PPI counterclaim was denied as no proof.

 

unfair charges denied also.

 

so counterclaim denied

[Bazooka Boo]

The old DJ lucky dip strikes again!

 

This is not good news, I am extremely sorry to hear this. Can you appeal?

[gust]

cant appeal - final decision

 

DJ started the trial with "this isnt really my area of expertise"

 

swear word comes here....

[Bazooka Boo]

DJ started the trial with "this isn't really my area of expertise"

 

At that point I would have walked!

Says it all, how can he preside or judge a case he has no knowledge in?

[BRIGADIER2JCS]

You can complain via the court manager.