HL Legal / Sigma SPV1 / First Direct***Claim Struck Out***

[BlueBox]

First Direct have sent these in response to CCA request.

 

 

 

They may well be genuine scans of the front and back of an original document. They have the same "Folder" reference at the top of each page (removed) and have "Page 1 of 2" and "Page 2 of 2" (although the terms are only a subset of those on a separate document, referred to at the beginning.)

 

It doesn't look like it was properly executed - just "Agreement executed" in the box with no date. The date stamp did have a full date on it but it just says "Received", not "Approved" or "Executed" like others I have seen.

 

Anyway, assuming they are both from the same original document, does this form an enforceable agreement?

 

Some views would be helpful please as I'm being pestered by Metropolitan now.

[GamekeeperToPoacher]

Bump

[Pinky69]

There is a reference to 04 up the side of the Terms. It's not possible to say whether that was part of the original application - it's in the same print. What you have to ask yourself is would a judge enforce it? In my opinion he would - it has the prescribed terms amd your signature. Offer them a £1 week and tell them that is all you can afford.

[BlueBox]

Thanks for that, I thought I might be pushing it with this one. There is enough there to strongly suggest the two sides were part of the same original document. I think I shall try with a F&F offer to resolve.

 

At the risk of rambling, some background. After a few changes in circumstances, we have ended up with quite a large amount against several card accounts. Having written to all of them toward the end of 2008 asking for a period of reduced payments, we have been appalled at the treatment we have received. They seem determined to make us feel like criminals. Some of them sent default notices as soon as the first reduced payment was received or (not coincidentally I suspect) very shortly after a CCA request was made. The phone calls have finally abated somewhat after a few written complaints.

 

What I find extremely frustrating is that they simply ignore most of the letters we send but expect you to jump at every missive from them. At the moment we feel caught in limbo where they won't take us to court because the agreements are either illegible, incomplete or simply non-existent but neither will all of them put accounts on hold while matters are resolved. Some have suggested they might but only if we use a recognised DMP organisation but we don't want to do that.

 

The irony is that before they started being so agressive and unpleasant, we would have worked out a way of paying them all off. Because of their difficult behaviour and inability to engage with us in a reasonable manner, they have forced us to look closely at exactly what our commitments are. Whilst longer term I don't want to dodge my responsibilities, I feel that these organisations should also not avoid theirs with regard to proper legal documentation and a straightforward negotiable approach to resolving matters.

 

CAG has been a great help in realising that so much of it is hot air but the background possiblilty of CCJs is a concern and somewhat stressful.

 

More posts to come on the other accounts.

[GamekeeperToPoacher]

BB,

 

Why don't you push the issue and take them to court?

 

GK

[BlueBox]

I'm looking for suggestions on how to deal with this situation. There's a number of issues involved.

 

I wrote to First Direct in November 2008 saying that due to changed circumstances I would only be able to make reduced payments for the

next six months. They couldn't seem to cope with the concept and closed the current account held jointly with my partner. (At the time I was amazed at their abrupt and unpleasant attitude considering our previously immaculate credit record - but I know better now)

 

For my credit card account, First Direct/HSBC then sent a default notice dated 12 December 08 (ie about the first possible opportunity after two missed full payments) asking for remedy before 30 December. To me this means it must be remedied by close of business on 29 December which would be one day short of the permitted 14 days. It also seems a rather unfair that it was served at the height of the Christmas post period but I don't suppose that argument would hold much water.

 

Unfortunately, the wording of the DN appears to be in order.

 

First question - is the timing of the default notice acceptable?

 

Their next step was to set up a 'consolidated debt' account with the same balance. The original card account appears as settled on 31/03/2009 with a default/delinquent balance showing. However, the new account (which they did not advise was being set up) was opened and defaulted on the same day 20/03/2009 - ie before the settlement date on the orginal account.

 

According to their original terms and conditions, they give themselves the entitlement, in the event of default, to transfer the card account to another account, but they do say that terms and conditions would be issued for any such account. Apart from a letter from Metropolitan Collection Services asking for payment under the new account reference, they have never sent any notification that the account had been transferred nor do I know what terms and conditions apply.

 

Second question - have they acted legally in the transfer of the account without formally notifiying me and issuing applicable t&c's?

 

Third question - have they handled this legally by defaulting a new account that had no default notice issued?

 

If anyone has challenged or even experienced a similar arrangement, I'd be interested.

 

Thanks

 

PS Link to original agreement thread

Edited September 30, 2009 by BlueBox
Link to original agreement

[BlueBox]

Just been through the paperwork they sent with the CCA request info on 30 April 09. (I had received it before but it had accidentally been destroyed.).

 

What they actually did was transfer the card account balance from their 'debt recovery account' to the current account (although that would have exceeded the o/d limit). The credit card was then paid out of the current account and the current account closed. The current account does not appear on my credit reference report. The 'Consolidated Debt' account is the one that now appears as defaulted.

 

I'm assuming the whole charade is an attempt to circumvent some legal requirement or other?

 

Hope that clarifies for anyone that was going to reply.

[BlueBox]

Any thoughts please?

[Pathway]

Have exactly the same situation! - be good to hear people's views.

 

Many thanks

[BlueBox]

I think my first tack will be to challenge them on

a. the credit card in my name was rolled into a joint account

b. no default notice was issued for the new account they created - it quite clearly references the original card account which now shows as settled.

[BlueBox]

Please could someone suggest course of action on this one?

 

Would be good if someone could take a closer look at the original agreement, linked above. I've found that one of the clauses referenced in the document doesn't actually appear.

 

Thanks

[BlueBox]

Anyone? Please?

[BlueBox]

Any thoughts on this please? Really want to get any flaky defaults off my file.

[BlueBox]

I've recently received a claim form from HL Legal on behalf of Sigma SPV1. They say the benefit of the account was passed to them but I don't recall any notice of assignment.

 

Although I've had letters from HL Legal (need to dig those out) there has been nothing in recent weeks that could be construed as a letter before action.

 

The amount involved is over £5,000 so presumably CPR would apply but is there an absolute obligation for them to send LBA? Or does it just look a bit bad for them if it goes to court?

 

Have already filed Acknowledgement of Service with defend in full as there are a lot of holes in this already.

 

Thanks

[AndyOrch]

Hi Bluebox and welcome to CAG legal Forum.

 

Type into the search box (top right under the CAG logo) Sigma SPV1...this will reveal the threads that others are facing and the procedure opted to deal with the matter.

 

Regards

 

Andy

[BlueBox]

Thanks Andy - I've had a look through those. Couldn't find anything that matched my situation. The claim is for the full balance - not one of the £299 specials.

 

Bit of background on this . . .

The original account was a credit card in my name only which was defaulted. I also had a First Direct joint account with my other half. The overdraft was paid off but First Direct / HSBC then moved the card balance to the current account and then on to a new consolidation account (ie different a/c number to joint account). They didn't tell me they were doing this and have never sent any terms for this 'new' account.

 

What I don't know is whether the original CC agreement (if one exists) would apply, or whether it's the current account terms, or if they broke the terms of one or the other by doing this. There's also the issue that the card was in my name only but the joint account obviously wasn't.

 

Whilst I'd expect them possibly to take arrears amounts from the current account (as set-off), moving the whole balance there seems a dubious move and only intended to avoid any CCA jurisdiction. Payments to the card account were never made from the First Direct joint account. The CC account would have been opened sometime in 2004 so predating CCA 2006.

 

The actual claim reads

"Monies due under an overdraft on account number XXXXXX/YYYYYYYY between HSBC Bank plc and the Defendant the benefit of which was assigned to the Claimant on 21/12/2011 The overdraft terminated upon the Defendant(s) failure to comply with the terms of the overdraft Agreement"

There's also a claim for interest @ 8%

 

I'll need to send a CPR 31.14 request regardless but they only refer to the overdraft agreement and the NoA. Is it reasonable to ask them to disclose any documents that show how the alleged amount was arrived at?

 

Any thoughts on lack of Letter Before Action?

[AndyOrch]

Try this one its in its infancy at the moment but its a claim for the full balance :-

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?372608-Sigma-SPV1-Ltd-court-claim-form-for-M-amp-S-store-credit-card/page2

 

Regards

 

Andy

[AndyOrch]

Overdrafts are rather different you will need to customise the CPR 31.14:-

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?372427-Natwest-CCJ-on-their-Charges!!/page2

[cleo4patra]

hi - received claim form from them this week for M & S card - think our circumstances are different but mine is for full balance also

[BlueBox]

Here's an update just to close this one off.

 

The original debt was on a credit card and 'consolidated' unilaterally by HSBC into a joint account.

 

I asked for the original CC agreement which was not forthcoming, so filed N244 order to force the matter. They sent the same pile of paperwork to court but not the agreement.

 

Warning here - don't expect the court to actually check that any documents provided are the ones required to comply with the order. Once I told them the agreement wasn't there, they got a district judge to review it and he struck out the case.

 

I applied to HL for court fees and preparation time as litigant in person which, in fairness, they paid up fairly promptly.

[AndyOrch]

Excellent BlueBox

 

Delighted that this has been resolved and will amend your thread title to reflect the result.

 

Well done.

 

Regards

 

Andy