Re: abuse of process - false county court claim

[hesanmp]

obtained 2 money judgments last year and have started enforcement action.

 

judgment debtor has now issued proceedings against me for sums that have already been decided in court.

 

this has now delayed order for sale for another three months.

 

judgment debtor now has an unless order to file a further statement of case and set out full particulars of the claim.

 

what if they are still identical to what has already been dealt with?

[honeybee13]

Hello there.

 

I'm sorry you haven't had any replies yet. Would it be possible for you to give us a bit more information about what's been happening please?

 

My best, HB

[hesanmp]

i took someone to court who owed me money and who i did some work for.

 

 

in court the 1st judgment was for the money owed to me.

for example Xyears ago he leant me £100 but over the years i had in fact paid him back £150,

therefore judgment was entered for £50 in my favour.

 

 

the second judgment i carried out works for him for the sum of for example £100,

he paid £50, again judgment was for £50.

(i may add the 2 judgments with costs are nearly £100k).

 

i started enforcement action,

i now have a final charging order and applied for an order for sale.

 

 

in order to muddy the waters

the judgment debtor issued proceedings indicating that

 

 

i owe him the equivalent of £50 from the 1st case

and £50 from the second case.

 

 

in my allocation questionnaire i pointed out the figures he was claiming were very similar (amounts and dates)

to proceedings that had already been determined.

the court has therefore issued an unless order.

he must file a further statement of case that sets out full particulars of claim, if he doesn't then the claim be struck out.

 

my question is what would he have to come up with in order for the claim to progress? i believe (or, rather i am certain - bank statements etc) that he can't come up with any new figures to show a new debt etc.

 

in his original particulars of claim it was signed by his solicitor.

 

 

we have now pointed out to his solicitor the similarity of the figures and he seemed quite shocked.

surely, now he has knowledge of the figures etc would he sign the new claim again.

 

 

i was under the impression a solicitor would have to be satisfied that the claim was genuine

before signing the statement of truth, or doesn't that really matter if the client is paying his fee?

 

when does this become an abuse of process/

[hesanmp]

i have been issued with a claim from somebody which i have already taken to court and successfully secured a judgment against them. they are now using the same figures in a claim against me which were admitted in the earlier case. this is costing a fortune in legal fees. there solicitor knows the situation but he has signed the statement of truth on the claim form.

 

any ideas how to stop this, do i have to wait for the next cmc or can i contact the court direct?

[unclebulgaria67]

What was this dispute about ? Would the defendent have any reason to counter claim ?

[hesanmp]

monies owed and works carried out. i for example claimed £100 he paid £50 which was agreed in court. judgment for £50. i have now gone for order for sale. he has now put in a claim for the £50 which i have already acknowledged he has paid to me. i hope that makes sense? (by the way.....judgment totals just under £100,000)

[unclebulgaria67]

Too complicated for me. If they are using a Solicitor I would guess that they can start another claim against you. In the particulars of claim, they would state the basis for doing so, which I guess are done in a way that is slightly different to your claim.

[hesanmp]

that is the problem, in the poc that have not stated their basis for doing so !!!!!!!!!!!

[honeybee13]

Hello again.

 

I've merged your threads, please keep posting on this one to help the people trying to advise you.

 

HB

[hesanmp]

come on guys, i was told there were some legal whizz kids on this forum

 

can you assign part of a debt (disputed) that has yet to be proven?

[unclebulgaria67]

I think you can apply to strike out the claim on the basis that the POC does not provide any triable issue for the court to decide on and that you have previously gained judgement ( case ref: )against the claimant for the claimed amount so the matter is Res Judicata.

 

That is my non expert opinion, but I have alerted the site team to see if others will add theirs.

[hesanmp]

thanks uncle 'b' i think 'it speaks for itself'. what puzzles me is that again the statement of case has been signed by their solicitor who has full knowledge of the judgment (he is also a deputy judge)!!!

[honeybee13]

Hello again.

 

Is this anything to do with your other thread please?

 

If you don't mind my saying, I don't think you are going to get the help you need without telling us why you're asking and the details of what has gone on. It goes without saying that legal advice is serious stuff and I don't think questions can be answered without detail.

 

Please try to to give the guys some background to your query and I'm sure they'll try to help you.

 

If I were advising, I'd need to know more about why the debt is not proven and why you would want to assign it, for instance.

 

HB

[AndyOrch]

Its not Res Judicata because the claim is now from the Defendant as Claimant.If they have a problem why didn't they PT 20 Counter Claim? I would make application to strike out and request SJ...there is no triable issue... purely tit for tat and a waste of court time and Costs.

 

Regards

 

Andy

[unclebulgaria67]

Its not Res Judicata because the claim is now from the Defendant as Claimant.If they have a problem why didn't they PT 20 Counter Claim? I would make application to strike out and request SJ...there is no triable issue... purely tit for tat and a waste of court time and Costs.

 

Regards

 

Andy

 

Thanks for the clarification. I was thinking that Res Judicata applied because the triable issues had already been dealt with by the court, although of course the claimant it now different.

 

Are the claimants solicitors just using this new claim as a tactical device ? Why issue a claim with no POC ?

[AndyOrch]

Different party UB..they have the right to issue a claim but they should have Counter claimed so that it remained the same issue... vexatious litigant!!

 

Andy

[hesanmp]

thanks guys, you are now voicing my frustrations!!

i have just received their 'new' statement of case which sets out their full poc,

it still represents the figures that were tried in the 1st judgment.

 

 

i am worried that this could land an the desk of yet another judge and be set down for a cmc (months of more waiting).

 

 

in our original defence when the claim was first issued we did make the comment that

 

 

1. there were not enough details to make a defence and

2. that the figures were remarkably similar to the previous case,

we did of course detail the previous case numbers for reference.

would the judge be able to cross reference the 2,

or is that for once again, a later hearing...more delays?

 

thanks for your help

[unclebulgaria67]

If the claimant is being advised by a deputy Judge, I would suggest that you see your Solicitor, as I am not sure an internet forum will replace having advice based on all the details you probably have in a large file of papers.

[hesanmp]

my solicitor is as perplexed as me!

he too cannot understand how their solicitor can continue to sign statements of case

when he knows these issues have been tried.

 

 

i think the best way forward is to wait and see what the judge orders when they receive the latest papers,

following the last unless order. going back to my earlier point when does wasting courts time become an 'abuse of process',

or can they simply argue we forgot to bring this as a counterclaim in the original proceedings?

[hesanmp]

unfortunate story of a friend of mine.

 

there were 2 brothers who were close.

over the years they helped each other out financially and all seemed ok.

 

the one brother then undertook works for the other.

 

unfortunately he instructed these works but failed to pay up.

 

the other brother on checking payments checked also the monies lent between each brothers.

 

it seems the same brother had been in fact conning the other brother and he had overpaid 10's of thousands of pounds.

the brother also owed 10's of thousands of pounds for the building works.

 

the brother who was owed the money desperately wanted to resolve the issues and proposed mediation and a family meeting,

 

at first it was agreed bu the reality was the one brother who owed all the money had no intention of facing the mediator or reality of what he had done.

 

the one brother issued proceedings for the amounts and judgments were awarded immediately, there was no defence.

 

unfortunately the dishonest brother spoon fed information to their parents indicating they were the innocent parties and the judgments were all lies etc etc. they took his side.

 

the brothers over the years have also had financial help from the parents.

the monies were given on an informal basis and were never to be repaid on demand.

moneis would be paid back as and when possible.

 

however since the one brother who is owed the monies has taken this action,

the parents have assigned part of the alleged loan to the dishonest brother.

it seems the parents have not demanded repayment from the other brother.

 

if the debt has not been proven, but they have assigned a percentage of it to the one brother, who has to prove the debt?

[honeybee13]

Hello again.

 

Is there paperwork about the assignment please?

 

HB

[hesanmp]

yes. as follows to: Mr X X

 

as sols and agents for mr X X we hereby give you notice that on X X 2010 mr X and Mrs X assigned to X the right to payment of £XX,XXX out of the debt you owe them.

 

and we give you further notice that mx X requires the payment of £XX,XXX forthwith

 

dated this XX day of X 2010.

 

signed by the solicitors of X the assignee.

 

that's all the paperwork there is.

[hesanmp]

hi...

 

when you have a hearing in front of a county court judge can a member of public, or the press, sit in on proceedings? can the case also be published in the media prior to judgment?

[Michael Browne]

hi...

 

when you have a hearing in front of a county court judge can a member of public, or the press, sit in on proceedings?

yes, but a judge can decide to exclude the public

can the case also be published in the media prior to judgment?

Presumably, but most county court case are not deemed newsworthy

[hesanmp]

thanks michael, what documents would 'joe public' be allowed to access, with regards to a county court claim?