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Bank fraud could soon be YOUR fault: New rules demand more care with cards and PINs

 

Banks are making changes to small print that will allow them to block compensation to fraud victims

 

Customers could be liable if they use a weak PIN or fail to adequately shield their number at a cashpoint

 

Moves have been condemned as 'unfair' and 'unreasonable' by a card security expert.

 

Banks are trying to dump responsibility for credit and debit card fraud on to customers in a move that could cost families tens of millions of pounds.

 

They are making changes to small print which will allow them to block compensation to fraud victims from January.

 

Customers could be liable if they use a PIN that can be easily guessed or the bank decides they have been careless and allowed a criminal to see the number at a cash machine.

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2230818/Bank-fraud-soon-YOUR-fault-New-rules-demand-care-cards-PINs.html


Anthrax alert at debt collectors caused by box of doughnuts

 

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I can't see how they can prove that you haven't adequately sheiled your pin at a cashpoint, so I'm going to go ahead and assume that they'll use this as a blanket excuse for not paying out. not that I'm cynical or anything...


"Then they came for me--and there was no one left to speak for me". Martin Niemöller

 

"A vital ingredient of success is not knowing that what you're attempting can't be done. A person ignorant of the possibility of failure can be a half-brick in the path of the bicycle of history". - Terry Pratchett

 

If I've been helpful, please click my star. :oops:

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I noticed a £1000 was taken from my account on Xmas eve in 2010 by a van hire company that I had used my cash card with to pay £100 deposit by chip and pin. The payment was changed to a £1000 and taken without my permission and no prior notice around 3 weeks later when my wages had been paid in, to pay for repairs to the vehicle after it broke down, even though the fault was not ours. The bank refused to help me even though I had 2 receipts for the 2 amounts with identical authorisation codes, which are supposedly unique to 1 transaction. It was 10 months later that I managed to recover my money through civil court. The bank was not interested as I only had a cash account and it was only my money/wages that had been taken, not theirs. I went to the ombudsman, as I felt the bank should have compensated me against this fraudulent act but they was interested because I had been successful in winning a court case against the thieves, who had tried daily to take the £1000 but the funds were not available until my wages were paid in early due to the Xmas period.

 

This basically means that I am in no way protected against fraud when using my cash card and when I do, if the retailers wants to help themselves to my hard earned cash by changing the amount after I have left the shop, the only way I can get stolen money back is by taking the retailer to court myself.

 

So wrong:(

Edited by Gess

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that could cost families tens of millions of pounds.

 

I hope that's not each! :)

 

Always get your receipt from the card machine and not just rely on the cash register or till. Once the retailer has pressed the button, they cannot change the amount.

Edited by Conniff

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A spokesman for Santander said: ‘In line with other providers'

 

Which just reinforces the 'use you feet to protest'. They are just a big cartel who all do the same thing, ripping people off being the number one priority,.

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I hope that's not each! :)

 

Always get your receipt from the card machine and not just rely on the cash register or till. Once the retailer has pressed the button, they cannot change the amount.

 

I did have the receipt. I put my card in the machine, agreed with the amount of £100, entered my pin and he gave me the receipt. It was weeks later when I received a letter from the hire company stating that I was liable to pay for the repair, after they had taken the £1000, that they enclosed the receipt for the £1000, on which the autorisation code was the same as the one on the £100 receipt that they gave me when I used the card. This could happen to anybody, yet the bank are not interested in doing anything about it. They had been trying to take the payment everyday but the funds were not available until my wages were paid in. They were paid in on 22nd December, ready for me to access on the 23rd. They payment was authorised by the bank on 22nd, even before I could get my hands on it myself. :x

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I did have the receipt. I put my card in the machine, agreed with the amount of £100, entered my pin and he gave me the receipt. It was weeks later when I received a letter from the hire company stating that I was liable to pay for the repair, after they had taken the £1000, that they enclosed the receipt for the £1000, on which the autorisation code was the same as the one on the £100 receipt that they gave me when I used the card. This could happen to anybody, yet the bank are not interested in doing anything about it. They had been trying to take the payment everyday but the funds were not available until my wages were paid in. They were paid in on 22nd December, ready for me to access on the 23rd. They payment was authorised by the bank on 22nd, even before I could get my hands on it myself. :x

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http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/23/business/global/court-closes-tax-case-against-spains-leading-banker.html

 

Published: May 22, 2012

 

MADRID — Spain’s national court on Tuesday closed a tax fraud investigation focusing on Emilio Botín, the chairman of Banco Santander, and 11 of his relatives.


Anthrax alert at debt collectors caused by box of doughnuts

 

Make sure you do not post anything which identifies you. Although we can remove certain things from the site unless it's done in a timely manner everything you post will appear in Google cache & we do not have any control over that.

 

Vir prudens non contra ventum mingit

 

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

17 Port & Maritime Regiment RCT

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As we know Banks terms and conditions mean very little if they are open to challenge.


Have a happy and prosperous 2013 by avoiiding Payday loans. If you are sent a private message directing you for advice or support with your issues to another website,this is your choice.Before you decide,consider the users here who have already offered help and support.

Advice offered by Martin3030 is not supported by any legal training or qualification.Members are advised to use the services of fully insured legal professionals when needed.

 

 

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In one way I can understand them wanting to make people more responsible as some people are very careless with their cards and accounts. If you go into a Tesco the card machine will be on the other side of the counter and you have to reach across to it. It is nearly impossible to shield your pin number. We no longer use Tesco for that reason!

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I have stopped using my card now except in the bank that issued it.

 

Every week I withdraw a certain amount of cash that I know I am going to use and that's it. I pay by cash now when shopping. I have also stopped using Store Loyalty Cards as the data they collect off of you is worth more to them than the measly points they give you for your spend

 

I do not shop online as it is not that cheaper than paying with cash and asking for a discount

 

If I know I will over-spend on the budget then I will go to the bank beforehand and withdraw more cash

 

They may know that someone bought an item but they cannot assign it too me

 

A warning and also a little story to all who return goods

 

I returned a PC game to my local Game Store in town and the assistant wanted my name and address.

I questioned this telling him also that I had paid cash and at the time didn't ask him for his name and address

he then said it was the law when making refunds

So I reeled off the pre-prepared Sale of goods act of 1979 speech [which has served me well] adding that in there as far as I was aware there was nothing in this act that mentioned anything about me having to give my details and then asked him whether trying to illicit something they were not legally entitled to from someone using deceit was legal?

His boss walked over at that point and told him to enter"None" on the computer and I was handed my refund without further ado

 

I think the point I am trying make here that has become all to apparent to me is that everyone is trying to get data on you and people out there are not careful about giving away their identities.

 

 

I suppose the question is am I being too paranoid or not paranoid enough

 

Many have data on me but for them from July this year I have done nothing and spent nothing and personally I feel a lot better about it.

 

I forgot to add

 

"Cash is still King"

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I have stopped using my card now except in the bank that issued it.

 

Every week I withdraw a certain amount of cash that I know I am going to use and that's it. I pay by cash now when shopping. I have also stopped using Store Loyalty Cards as the data they collect off of you is worth more to them than the measly points they give you for your spend

 

I do not shop online as it is not that cheaper than paying with cash and asking for a discount

 

If I know I will over-spend on the budget then I will go to the bank beforehand and withdraw more cash

 

They may know that someone bought an item but they cannot assign it too me

 

A warning and also a little story to all who return goods

 

I returned a PC game to my local Game Store in town and the assistant wanted my name and address.

I questioned this telling him also that I had paid cash and at the time didn't ask him for his name and address

he then said it was the law when making refunds

So I reeled off the pre-prepared Sale of goods act of 1979 speech [which has served me well] adding that in there as far as I was aware there was nothing in this act that mentioned anything about me having to give my details and then asked him whether trying to illicit something they were not legally entitled to from someone using deceit was legal?

His boss walked over at that point and told him to enter"None" on the computer and I was handed my refund without further ado

 

I think the point I am trying make here that has become all to apparent to me is that everyone is trying to get data on you and people out there are not careful about giving away their identities.

 

 

I suppose the question is am I being too paranoid or not paranoid enough

 

Many have data on me but for them from July this year I have done nothing and spent nothing and personally I feel a lot better about it.

 

I forgot to add

 

"Cash is still King"

 

I had my debit card retained at Tesco in Inverness and the bank said there was no reason for it. Apparently it happens a lot there. The bank just suggested giving me a new card so I withdrew my money and closed my account. We now use one account and draw cash for everything from the bank. We don't use points cards etc and have not done since 2009. When you pay cash you know its yours, don't pay credit charges and don't get stung with charges for direct debits coming out early even though you been given dates for payments. Definately have peace of mind and worry free sleep at night...

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In point of fact, if money is taken out of the account of ANY person, by someone other than themselves or those with authority to do so, then that amounts to a criminal offence against the Bank / Building Society.

So long as the customer reports to the bank and makes a complaint to them that the Bank / Building Society has mishandled their account, it is for the Bank or Building Society to then report the matter to the police as a crime committed against themselves and assume responsibility for the matter themselves (by putting back into the account the money stolen from it whilst it was under their care by way of a gratuitous bailment) as no crime has been committed against the customer whose money the bank is responsible for securing.

To do otherwise would be for the bank / building society's staff to commit a number of criminal offences against the customer (see below), and irrespective of whatever they say in their policies, they cannot lawfully sidestep that responsibility.

 

The criminal offences the Bank / Building Society staff would be committing are :--

 

Harassment contrary to the S. 40 Administration of Justice Act 1970. The bank / building Societies course of conduct amounts to harassment of anyone in this situation, and is also contrary to SS 2 and 7 of the Protection from Harassment Act 1997.

 

The Bank / Building Societies staffs' actions of would also amount to “evasion of liability by deception” contrary to S. 2 Theft Act 1968 by “attempting to obtain a pecuniary advantage from their customer by deceptioncontrary to S. 16 Theft Act 1968 inasmuch as they are trying to deceive their customer into accepting liability for money that was given away by the banks own staff to a criminal as a result of fraud against the Bank / Building Society. For these offences, any customer in this situation can mount a private criminal prosecution of the Bank / Building Societies chairman (by Vicarious Liability at Common Law) and / or the staff who refuse to refund their money (you would charge both and play one off against the other(s))

 

If the bank / building society wanted to take money from a customer in this situation, they would need a court Order to do so, from either the County Court or High Court (depending on the amount in question), otherwise they would be committing the criminal offences described.

 

Until recently, I was a debt advice specialist with Bedford Citizens Advice Bureau (now a debt consultant with Resettle.me.uk) and this is the advice I give to my clients.

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Time to start going back to using cash transactions only again. Draw you money out from the bank teller for what you need for the day and don't use the ATM either. Due to Fractional Reserve Banking, there are not enough bank notes to go around if we all did that and the banks would fall flat on their faces. Not only that, it would cost them a fortune to pay for all the teller points to be open at once due to the large number of customers at the counters. It would force them to back down on this to make it more appealing to use the card system again.

 

It can be done if everyone works together and makes it too difficult for the banks.

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In point of fact, if money is taken out of the account of ANY person, by someone other than themselves or those with authority to do so, then that amounts to a criminal offence against the Bank / Building Society.

We have been discussing automated feeds on an entirely separate thread on another board and liability of passing third parties login information to access basic statement data here http://community.quickfile.co.uk/quickfile/topics/questions_re_security_of_my_data_bank_feed_and_account_access

 

Would you say it was possible to allow a third party permission to access this data and then if their secuirty were breached and a fraudulent activity took place would your statement still hold true or would it be a straightforward breach of T&C's for divulging (however securely) logon details? If so how do you legitimately give a third party access or authority to do so?

Are we talking only by way of power of attorney etc?

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It WOULD be a breach of the terms and conditions (generally), so if THAT person took an unauthorised amount out of the account, or divulged the pin code to someone else, the bank would rightly have a case to argue that you had acted negligently, so I would imagine that any court would take the view that YOU would be liable for the loss. If the terms & conditions of the account contract (that's what it effectively is, a contract in legal terms) do not allow third party access, then you cannot "legitimately" give any third party access, but it would need a judge to decide whether that third party had acted negligently if you DID give someone else access.

 

The banks often turn a blind eye to these activities when it suits their purposes and they are making money out of it. When it turns sour and they begin to lose money, they look for someone else to whom they can pass the buck, but they can't legally have it both ways.

 

The banks negligence can be argued in court (if it can be shown that they knew about third party access and had turned a blind eye on a previous occasion(s)) if it was their system that was insufficient to safeguard your money (they would generally agree to "award you the sum lost - as an act of good faith (sic)" IF you took them to Court and requested the court to issue an Order of Discovery to have a copy of the banks security system (i.e. the software that runs the cash-point and which controls all transactions in / out of your accounts), because they would never divulge that software. It is easier and a lot cheaper for them to reimburse you than allow a court to order the hand-over of their security software.

 

However, we're getting into a bit of what would be a complex argument here, but the bottom line is that if the person to whom you had given access had not divulged the pin code to anyone else, and wasn't negligent with its security, and wasn't the person who took the money from the account, then the same argument above applies, but you'd more than likely have to get the matter into a court (on a case for negligence by the bank) to argue these points in order to get the money reinstated to your account, if this is what has happened to you.

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Who in the first place was responsible for all of this "Cash-less Society" not the ordinary public,the banks encouraged ,credit cards and debit cards ,encouraged firms to pay wages into bank accounts instead of the old way ,you had no choice it was forced upon us and the best way in my opinion was the old way, Cash in your pay packet,that way if you have none when it had run out ,you could not spend it.They are the ones that are responsible for a multitude of problems ,they encourage people to get into debt,it is about time that people wised up and asked Employers to pay them with CASH, pay for everything by cash with receipts,abolish the cash- less society, do away with credit cards and debit cards deal only in cash,that will teach them.They make the rules then change them to suit themselves.

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Would you say it was possible to allow a third party permission to access this data and then if their secuirty were breached and a fraudulent activity took place would your statement still hold true or would it be a straightforward breach of T&C's for divulging (however securely) logon details? If so how do you legitimately give a third party access or authority to do so?

Are we talking only by way of power of attorney etc?

Direct Debit. One thing I have never agreed to since, I am the only one who should have the authority to put my hand into my bank account and take what I want. There have been many instances of double dips and companies taking far more than they should. While you can get it back, (eventually), they have had your money and have been making interest on it until you get it back while you have not made any interest on it. You also have the problem of liability if their action takes your account into overdraft, along with your own transaction via card, for which you are charged. If you honestly believed the money was in the account to cover your card use but was not due to a company debiting more than they should, the company should then be liable for any bank charges incurred by the overdraft.

 

However, it does leave the door wide open to abuse if you are giving someone your bank details to set up a DD. It's not done electronically so someone has to take your details and enter them into a computer. What's to stop them making a note of those details and using them for fraudulent activities later? The same goes for Debit and Credit card transactions over the phone.

 

For example:

If I work for a shop and you buy an item over the phone, I enter your credit card details and use them to make the purchase you want. I also make a note of those details and use them to buy an item on the phone for collection. By the time you realise someone else has bought something using your card, I have collected the goods and am long gone.

 

So who is liable? The perpetrator (me) is unknown unless CCTV in the shop can identify me picking the goods up. The shop should not be made to refund the purchase since it was a legal purchase from their point of view. The banks are denying liability even though it was their weak security with credit and debit cards that allowed it to happen. By this change, you gave the information to me so you are now liable for it.

Edited by Tryst

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This is there way of saying "They've lost control and the public must now pay". It's the only way they have of fighting back..... the dirty way!!!

 

Time to get rid of the I.T think tanks as they're no longer needed arguing the toss with the customer is now the order of the day.

 

The only way not to get ripped by these highway robbers is if we all go back to stashing money under the bed!

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Exactly. Vagueness will protect the party that is stronger and bigger.

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So I guess the question is, will there be banks that do this and banks that don't and who are they.

 

People can always open another account with another bank. A bit of a hassle, but sometimes that's what it takes.

 

Which just reinforces the 'use you feet to protest'. They are just a big cartel who all do the same thing, ripping people off being the number one priority,.

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Well I can see that they are responsible for cyber hacks etc. and they want to make the consumer responsible for fraud that might be a result of the consumer being careless.

 

Having said that the problem is that they could then push a lot of things on to us and make us pay for things have have not actually done.

 

If someone steels my card or my card details, and they have the technoogy to read it or hack it there is not a lot I can do about it but report it and this will depend on the quality of the technology the bank deployed as well.

 

So I can see where the banks are coming from, but surely one of the reasons they encouraged people to use cards was because it's safer than cash and can not be stolen.

 

If it can be than what is the point of having a card, especially if my whole month salary is on there, which I would not carry around in cash.

 

Even if they only change the small print and you need a lawyer to understand it, which most counsumers will not have, this will be a short term thing, because when the first case comes and the papers pick up on it, it will be in the papers in laymen's terms and consumers will start voting with their feet very quickly.

 

So unless every single bank decides to introduce this, it will not really work. This is the problem with the small print and pushing costs on to customers in a sneaky manner. It backfires sooner than they think.

 

 

 

 

This is there way of saying "They've lost control and the public must now pay". It's the only way they have of fighting back..... the dirty way!!!

 

Time to get rid of the I.T think tanks as they're no longer needed arguing the toss with the customer is now the order of the day.

 

The only way not to get ripped by these highway robbers is if we all go back to stashing money under the bed!

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Out of curiosity does anyone know if other countries put up with this ?.

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Really?? Well considering Lloyds TSB sent my bank statements, credit card statements and an unsigned credit card halfway across town to an address I have never lived at - I guess the have to find someone else to blame but themselves.

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For example:

If I work for a shop and you buy an item over the phone, I enter your credit card details and use them to make the purchase you want. I also make a note of those details and use them to buy an item on the phone for collection. By the time you realise someone else has bought something using your card, I have collected the goods and am long gone.

 

So who is liable? The perpetrator (me) is unknown unless CCTV in the shop can identify me picking the goods up. The shop should not be made to refund the purchase since it was a legal purchase from their point of view. The banks are denying liability even though it was their weak security with credit and debit cards that allowed it to happen. By this change, you gave the information to me so you are now liable for it.

 

The shop selling the good is supposed to ask for the card when collecting goods ordered by phone. If they fail to do this the shop is liable. A bike shop has recently had just this problem where they lost money on a bike sale by not requesting the card to complete the transaction.

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