Bailiff Levy/Seizure when debtor not present - Discussion

[ploddertom]

So a levy is valid because a bailiff stuck a document though the door? Excellent!

 

I don't proposeto argue here as it does the OP no good but a Bailiff may legitimately levy on goods outside if he cannot gain access to a house. All he needs to do is post the Notice of Seizure through the door or leave it attached to the goods seized. As it is not signed by the debtor he cannot charge for a Walking Possession. This is in no way a global levy or drive by levy and is valid.

[TB Law]

Ah, I didnt know that and I apologise.

 

Can you point me to the regulations that allow for a notice to be placed over the goods/vehicle seized?

[sgtbush]

The levy is not valid because its made in your absence and the document has 7 items or less. The Judgment in Ambrose vs. Nottingham City Council ruled that "global levies" are irregular and therefore, not binding on debtors regardless of whether or not a Walking Possession Agreement has been signed.

 

 

oh my!!

[TB Law]

The relevent legislation is community charges (administration and enforcement) 1989

 

oh my!! Poll tax ended over 20 years ago.

 

Where about in the council tax (administration and enforcement) regulations 1992 does it say the authority or a bailiff can place a notice of seizure on goods in the debtors absence?

[sgtbush]

Regulation 33 and 34 of the The Council Tax (Administration and Enforcement) Regulations 1992

 

the reason that the bailiff can levy the car is under the law of distress

there will be a liability order issued so the bailiff can levy, sieze and remove goods or chattles to satisfy the debt

 

Can a Bailiff take my car?

Yes they can…and in particular, it is the easiest item to remove as in most cases, the car is either parked on your driveway or within a few metres of your home. In fact one bailiff company’s website states that: “We regard the presence of a vehicle that can be seized….. as a bonus!!

Until recently, it was very rare for a bailiff to clamp a car when he was enforcing a Liability Order for outstanding Council Tax. Sadly we are hearing of more and more bailiffs's clamping a vehicle in order to force you to pay the outstanding amount immediately.

 

Which goods can a bailiff take?

There are some exceptions to what the bailiff can take from your home:-

A bailiff acting on a County Court Judgment cannot seize clothing, bedding, furniture, household equipment or other goods necessary to meet basic domestic needs.

Generally, no bailiff can seize tools, books, vehicles or other equipment necessary for personal use in employment or business. However, a bailiff acting for Poll Tax, Council Tax, VAT and Tax may be able to do so.

No bailiff can seize goods belonging to anyone other than the person named on the distress warrant.

A bailiff cannot seize goods subject to a hire purchase or rental agreement (goods on credit sale can be seized because they belong to the person).

Goods you own jointly with someone else can be taken.

The bailiff may take the goods away immediately, but what will usually happen is that the bailiff and the debtor will come to an agreement known as a "walking possession agreement". This means that the debtor has agreed to pay the bailiff a maximum of 45pence plus VAT per day for the continued use of the goods. This is not permanent and will only give the debtor a few days to try and re-negotiate with the court. If a bailiff has gained entry and the debtor does not want the goods to be removed immediately, this agreement has to be signed.

Goods seized by the bailiff must be put into auction to be sold, the bailiff is under a legal obligation to obtain the best price possible. As the goods are second-hand, the value of the goods are only a fraction of what their new value was. A bailiff will often identify many more goods than you might expect.

 

 

Also, from an emotional point of view, the threat of having the family car taken is normally enough to force most people to go to extreme lengths to find the money to pay the debt, normally by borrowing money or using funds that are vital for utility and food bills etc.

If there is a danger that a bailiff could seize your car, our advice would be to write immediately to both the bailiff company to inform them if any of the following is applicable to you:

 

• The car does not belong to you.

• You are self employed and the car is necessary for "your use only" in the course of your employment or business)

• The car is subject to a Finance Agreement.

• The car is subject to a Hire Purchase Agreement.

[TB Law]

Well done sgtbush, the bailiff can LEVY on the goods, and case law has defined what constitutes a valid levy. Ambrose.

 

That is unless ploddertom can produce the regulation from post #7 or prove the judge in Ambrose got his facts wrong.

[wonkeydonkey]

The levy is not valid because its made in your absence and the document has 7 items or less. The Judgment in Ambrose vs. Nottingham City Council ruled that "global levies" are irregular and therefore, not binding on debtors regardless of whether or not a Walking Possession Agreement has been signed.

 

Where in hells name did you did up this garbage????? You are not unique on cag we have met many an idiot who spouts forth without knowing why, we tend to tolerate them, until they start giving bad advice to caggers who are very much in need of accurate and positive advice to help them get a resolve to their problems, the thick skinned and ignorant usually get the message and know they have overstreached their single brain cell and go away to get employment as a bailiff... the keen and eager to learn type, stick around and try to expand their knowledge, only to later return a make good contribution...which category are you in?

 

WD

[TB Law]

Where in hells name did you did up this garbage?????

 

A book by someone called John Kruse, Sources of Bailiff Law p119-124. - The Judgment of Ambrose v Notting City Council 2004.

 

extracts here http://www.bournesdebtsolutions.com/council-tax-and-bailiffs.php

[sgtbush]

a debt managment company that charges for services will embelish the ruling in their favor to get custom

 

global levies are invalid, we all know that

levies on a bit of paper-- invalid, needs to be on a proper notice of distress form known as a form 7

 

steer clear of such companys embelishing the truth

 

most of them dont know that a magistrates court fine is exempt from DMP's and never become statute barred

they will tell you that we can deal with ALL your debts and fail to say that magistrates fines cannot be put in

the !st thing the debtor knows is when a bailiff or court enforcement officer comes round with a warrant of distress or a warrant of commital

 

 

im not saying the council tax problem is a magistrates coutrt fine, im saying they tell half truths

 

 

 

so you see, the infomation on that link will be twisted in the companys favour to get business

Edited November 8, 2012 by sgtbush
additional

[TB Law]

OK, even if the levy is valid, but the value of the vehicle could be significantly higher than the original debt and that amounts to exessive levy.

 

This is questionable as it may be an abuse of process or even unjust enrichment. The same book quotes the judgement of Steel Linings Limited, Mark Harvey v Bibby & Co [1993] EWCA which the court ruled goods valued at £46,340 for a debt of £7385 to be "clearly disproportionate" and that assumes 16% sale value at auction.

Someone on this forum took that a step further by quoting an even lower figure of 10%, but was unable to give the case citation that sets 10% as an acceptable value of goods distrained.

[sgtbush]

nope does not apply,

how much is the debt

if the car is the only item that can be levied ie not gained access to the premisis then exessive levy does not apply as their is only one item available to levy

 

 

let my clarifi for you

 

the bailiff cannot levy on a load of items in the house, remember the auction costs, removal costs and other costs have to be taken into consideration plus that the items will only get about 10% of face value at auction

say the debt is £200.00 -- the bailiff levys on £2000.00 worth, this is correct, he cannot then say add on a car just to be horrible, then its unjust,

however if the debt is £200, the bailiff levies on a car belonging to the debtor valued at 10,000.

it will not get this at auction but it is not unjust as the car is all that is available, the debt and costs get paid, the remainder is returned to the debtor

Edited November 8, 2012 by sgtbush

[TB Law]

needs to be on a proper notice of distress form known as a form 7

 

BettyJay says the debt is council tax.

 

A form 7 is used by landlords distraining on goods of a tenant with rent arrears. Its a prescribed document: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1988/2050/schedule/2/crossheading/7/made

[TB Law]

nope does not apply,

 

if the car is the only item that can be levied ie not gained access to the premisis then exessive levy does not apply as their is only one item available to levy

 

 

 

what regulation is that?

[sgtbush]

Mark Harvey v Bibby & Co [1993]

 

seriously you need to read things properly before giving advice, the company had access to other items to levy therefore the levy was illegal

[sgtbush]

seriously im talking way above your understanding level, go do some reading

[sgtbush]

what regulation is that?

 

THE LAW OF DISTRESS for gods sake

 

go read it

[sgtbush]

what regulation is that?

What is excessive distress?

This offence occurs where more goods have been taken than are “reasonably required” to clear both the debt and the bailiff’s costs”. There are a number of points that should be made clear on this section before considering whether you have grounds for complaint.

Firstly, it is very rare that goods actually get taken…it is the threat of the goods being removed that the bailiff relies upon for his payment. In fact, goods are removed in just one case in every hundred.

The next important point concerns the value of the goods removed. Although a sofa may well have cost you many hundreds of pounds, at auction it could sell for just 10% of that price. Televisions and electrical items sell for just nominal amounts….if at all.

But, by far the most important point here, and one that has caused many problems is where one particular item, (normally a motor vehicle) worth a lot of money, has been taken by the bailiff to satisfy a small debt.

However, if this was the only item available, then the bailiff would not be seen to have committed this offence. This would normally apply if you had refused the bailiff entry into your home where he would have been able to levy on domestic items: and instead, he has had to levy on the motor vehicle that was parked outside.

Note: Please remember that a bailiff cannot levy on a motor vehicle if it is kept in a locked garage, not parked nearby, or not in your own name!!!

It is very common practice for a bailiff collecting council tax to leave a letter at your home entitled: "Notice of Seizure" that lists a motor vehicle parked in your driveway.

[TB Law]

In post #23 you have contradicted your own advice you made in post #20.

[sgtbush]

and how did u work that out??

 

if the bailiff can levy on property and then slams the car on for good measure, it may be unjust as excessive

 

If a car is the only item available then it is not

 

it does not matter if distress is put on a 10,000 car for a 1000 debt if the car was the only available asset to preform distraint upon

 

 

this is the last post im putting up because you are seriously too thick to " get it"

 

 

i did think WonkyDonky was a bit harsh with his reply towards you but now im in full agreement

[TB Law]

THE LAW OF DISTRESS for gods sake

 

go read it

 

Law of Distress Amendmant Act 1888

Law of Distress Amendmant Act 1895

Law of Distress Amendmant Act 1908

Part VI of the Council Tax (Administration and Enforcement) Regulations 1992

 

Ive read it, and I still find nothing that allows a bailiff to place a document on a debtors goods in his absence and it qualifies as a valid levy.

[ims21]

Deep breath please gentlemen.

 

If you would like a discussion thread started then please say so because this thread is really meant for the OP's problem.

 

I am happy to move the discussion posts to a new thread.

 

Many thanks

 

ims

[TB Law]

No thanks Im done.

 

BettyJay's problem is about having a document pushed through her door while she was out and the bailiff says this is a notice of seizure on a vehicle.

 

This debate is whether a document posted through a door constitutes a valid levy over the vehicle using current council tax enforcment regulations and known case law.

 

I argued this is invalid levy under the test of Ambrose v Nottingham City Council,. but forum members say that is "garbage" or it "doent apply", but none have shown any regulation or case law supporting their argument.

[hallowitch]

Irregular Distress (Levy) by bailiffs

With thanks to Tomtubby

[edit]MRS AMBROSE v NOTTINHGAM CITY COUNCIL

This is another well known legal cases that has been relied upon many times when either issuing proceedings, or one that can be referred to when writing a letter of complaint. This case concerns a lady by the name of Mrs Ambrose who claimed that a levy (distress) was irregular as bailiffs had removed goods from the home that were necessary for “providing the basic domestic needs of the family”

Background:

Mrs Ambrose and her husband had an unpaid Council Tax bill for £851.00 owing to Nottingham City Council. In September 2003, Rossendale’s bailiffs attended at their home to levy distress on goods. Rossendale’s had entered the property, where they identified items that were listed on a Walking Possession. Next to those items listed, the bailiff wrote the words: “and all other goods on the premises unless exempt or specially exempt by statute.” The bailiff had not looked around the house; he had merely entered one room and was therefore unable to see which items were “exempt”

Regulation 45 of the Council Tax (Administration and Enforcement) Regulations 1992 lists the following items as being exempt from seizure:

"Such tools, books, vehicles and other items of equipment as are necessary for use personally in employment, business or vocation"

"Such clothing, bedding, furniture, household equipment and provisions as are necessary for satisfying basic domestic needs of the person and family".

As the Council Tax remained unpaid, the bailiff returned with a van to seize furniture that included a sofa, footstool and two dining chairs.

District Judge Cooper agreed that the seizure was irregular as the bailiff had removed furniture that was necessary for “satisfying the basic domestic needs of Mrs Ambrose and her family” This was because, amongst other items removed, the bailiffs had removed 2 dining chairs. They left behind the table and the remaining two chairs. As the family consisted of Mrs & Mrs Ambrose and one child, the bailiffs should have left seating for 3 people, not two.

Nottingham City Council had argued that there could not be any irregularity as Mrs Ambrose had signed the Walking Possession. This was rejected by Judge Cooper who agreed that Mrs Ambrose was faced with the prospect of having her goods removed unless she signed the Walking Possession.

As important as the above is, the Judge also agreed that the wording on the Walking Possession was deficient in that the reference to “all other goods on the premises unless exempt” did not specify what those other goods were, and which ones were exempt. The Judge agreed that the levy was also irregular for this reason.

__________________

[sgtbush]

so the ambrose case is to do with a global levy, which is not allowed and exempt items which were not looked for, nothing to do with levying in debtors absence

 

i cannot at the moment find any case law to support leving in absence, but i will

however here is an extract from the codes of conduct

 

 

 

A bailiff is someone authorised to collect debt on behalf of a creditor. A creditor being someone you owe money to.

 

• A court bailiff delivers legal documents to people, and might recover some kinds of debts.
  
• A certificated or private bailiff tries to negotiate getting debts paid. As a last resort, they can repossess property or remove a debtor's goods.
  
• Certificated bailiffs are private bailiffs that have supplied references to the court and are deemed to be ‘fit and proper individuals’. Bailiffs that collect road traffic fines and rent arrears need to be certified.
  
• In Scotland, officers of court serve documents relating to debt recovery. They also give debtors advice on their best course of action.
  

Bailiffs can be used to collect different types of debts, such as county court judgments, unpaid council tax, magistrates court fines, outstanding rent, unpaid maintenance to the Child Support Agency.

Even though different bailiffs have different powers when collecting debts they all have to adhere to certain rules that apply to all bailiffs.

Anybody can act as a bailiff providing they have the legal authority from the creditor to do so. Most reputable firms however use only Certified Bailiffs.

Do bailiffs have a code of conduct?

 

Yes, all bailiffs should adhere to the following:

 

• If the only person present is, or appears to be, under the age of 18 then the bailiff must leave.
  
• Ideally visits should be made between the hours 6am and 9pm and should not take place on a Sunday, bank holiday unless permitted by the Court; an exception to this could be when the debtor is conducting his business, i.e. works night time only.
  
• They should not divulge the nature of the visit to anyone other than to the debtor.
  
• In the absence of the debtor any documentation left should be in a sealed envelope.
  
• Unless permitted unlawful force should not be used to enter the premises.
  
• Goods that clearly indicate that they belong to a child should not be seized.
  
• If goods are removed then the debtor should be given a receipt.
  
• The debtor should be notified of the fees incurred for each visit and be made aware of additional costs should further action be implemented.
  
• The value of any goods seized is in proportion to the debt and the additional charges owed.
  
• If Police are in attendance it is to be explained that they are only there to prevent a breach of the peace and that their presence will not influence or assist with the actions of the bailiffs.
  

[TB Law]

Code of conduct is not legislated.

 

See Evans v South Ribble Borough Council [1992] QB 757 its judgement also overturned a levy that was in the form of an unsigned 'agreement' stuck through a door and the court said "there was no completed distress".