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I am being forced to buy a used car !


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Check the OFT guide: ...2.14 If you normally do business with consumers face-to-face, the DSRs are unlikely to apply to an occasional order that you take in these ways... Most car transactions are not done by distance means (because people tend to go and test drive them etc) so it could be that the trader can say that he normally does business face to face so the DSRs won't apply. I would if I was a trader!And it appears that a trader could do this occasionally and still the DSRs wouldn't apply. And no, I'm not getting mixed up with personalised goods thank you.http://www.oft.gov.uk/shared_oft/business_leaflets/general/oft698.pdf

 

But it appears that the OP has not had any face to face dealings with the seller so in which case DSR's will apply. If you read post 1 you will see that the OP has had advice from a regognised body plus a solicitor.

 

Please Note

 

The advice I offer will be based on the information given by the person needing it. All my advice is based on my experiences and knowledge gained in working in the motor and passenger transport industries in various capacities. Although my advice will always be sincere, it should be used as guidence only.

 

I would always urge to seek face to face professional advice for clarification prior to taking any action.

 

Please click my reputation 'star' button at the bottom of my profile window on the left if you found my advice useful.

Please Note

 

The advice I offer will be based on the information given by the person needing it. All my advice is based on my experiences and knowledge gained in working in the motor and passenger transport industries in various capacities. Although my advice will always be sincere, it should be used as guidence only.

 

I would always urge to seek face to face professional advice for clarification prior to taking any action.

 

Please click my reputation 'star' button at the bottom of my profile window on the left if you found my advice useful.

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I think you've got the wrong end of the stick there Sailor Sam. A consumer doesn't need to have had face to face dealings; the requirement is that the trader usually has face to face dealings when conducting his business. And that is exactly what car dealers do so could easily claim they are exempt from DSRs. And solicitors aren't always right by the way although I admire your faith in them. Neither is CAB

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I think you've got the wrong end of the stick there Sailor Sam. A consumer doesn't need to have had face to face dealings; the requirement is that the trader usually has face to face dealings when conducting his business. And that is exactly what car dealers do so could easily claim they are exempt from DSRs. And solicitors aren't always right by the way although I admire your faith in them. Neither is CAB

 

So you are saying a trader can bypass DSR if his normal dealings are face to face. Makes DSR pointless then

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Well I wouldn't say pointless exactly, but the clue to the applicability is in the title: The Distance Selling Regs. In order to be caught by them you would have to normally sell by distance means. Traders selling normally face to face could be exempt and what I've been trying to say is that you can't just assume DSR applies because there was a distance sale. That's the law for you...

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Well I wouldn't say pointless exactly, but the clue to the applicability is in the title: The Distance Selling Regs. In order to be caught by them you would have to normally sell by distance means. Traders selling normally face to face could be exempt and what I've been trying to say is that you can't just assume DSR applies because there was a distance sale. That's the law for you...

 

What stops the dealer from claiming he normally sells face to face and therefore DSR does not apply

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Well I wouldn't say pointless exactly, but the clue to the applicability is in the title: The Distance Selling Regs. In order to be caught by them you would have to normally sell by distance means. Traders selling normally face to face could be exempt and what I've been trying to say is that you can't just assume DSR applies because there was a distance sale. That's the law for you...

 

If I lived next door to you and used the phone and bought goods off you, the DSR will still apply. I am not sure where you are getting your

info from, but it seems you may have misunderstood it or are twisting it to suit your own agenda.

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Well I wouldn't say pointless exactly, but the clue to the applicability is in the title: The Distance Selling Regs. In order to be caught by them you would have to normally sell by distance means. Traders selling normally face to face could be exempt and what I've been trying to say is that you can't just assume DSR applies because there was a distance sale. That's the law for you...

 

What is your point? I've already pointed out to you that the OP is saying that they had NO face to face contact with the seller!

 

Please Note

 

The advice I offer will be based on the information given by the person needing it. All my advice is based on my experiences and knowledge gained in working in the motor and passenger transport industries in various capacities. Although my advice will always be sincere, it should be used as guidence only.

 

I would always urge to seek face to face professional advice for clarification prior to taking any action.

 

Please click my reputation 'star' button at the bottom of my profile window on the left if you found my advice useful.

Please Note

 

The advice I offer will be based on the information given by the person needing it. All my advice is based on my experiences and knowledge gained in working in the motor and passenger transport industries in various capacities. Although my advice will always be sincere, it should be used as guidence only.

 

I would always urge to seek face to face professional advice for clarification prior to taking any action.

 

Please click my reputation 'star' button at the bottom of my profile window on the left if you found my advice useful.

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Well I wouldn't say pointless exactly, but the clue to the applicability is in the title: The Distance Selling Regs. In order to be caught by them you would have to normally sell by distance means. Traders selling normally face to face could be exempt and what I've been trying to say is that you can't just assume DSR applies because there was a distance sale. That's the law for you...

 

Here are the exemptions to the DSR

 

Exemptions to the Regulations

 

The Distance Selling Regulations cover a wide variety of situations where you buy something on line from either the UK or the EU. However there are some situations where you do not have a right to cancel (unless the seller has given you this right prior to the sale) and some good and services that are definitely not included in the DSRs.

Note that you don't have a right to cancel on all goods. There are some items that are exempt from the regulations as it would be unrealistic to include them. So unless the seller agrees otherwise the types of items in the list below are exempt from the right to cancel:

  • personalised goods or goods made to a consumer's specification
  • goods that cannot, by their nature, be returned
  • perishable goods (eg flowers, fresh food)
  • un-sealed audio or video recordings or computer software
  • newspapers, periodicals or magazines
  • betting, gaming or lottery services
  • services that begin, by agreement, before the end of the cancellation period providing the supplier has informed the consumer in writing before the conclusion of the contract that he will not be able to cancel once performance of the services has begun with his agreement
  • goods or services, the price of which is dependent on fluctuations in the financial market.

Certain goods and services are exempt from all or part of the regulations:

  • business-to-business contracts
  • financial services sold at distance, which are covered by the Financial Services (Distance Marketing) Regulations.
  • contracts for the sale of land – although the regulations do apply to consumer rental agreements
  • products bought from vending machines
  • goods or services bought at an auction with an auctioneer.

http://getoffmymoney.com/distance_selling_regs.php#except

 

Conducting your business normally on a face to face basis is not there, Thats the law for you.....

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2.14

If you normally do business with consumers face-to-face, the DSRs

are unlikely to apply to an occasional order that you take in these

 

ways. However, if the contract is concluded by distance means under

 

an ’organised distance sales or service provision scheme’ (see

 

paragraph 1.6 for what we consider this term means) then the DSRs

 

are likely to apply. Such schemes are not defined in the DSRs and the

 

facts in each case need to be considered but the DSRs may apply if

 

you use standard procedures for processing orders including standard

 

correspondence sent out to customers which they then return.

 

 

1.6 Organised distance sales or service provision scheme

is not

defined in the DSRs. Each case must be considered on its merits.

 

We take the view that where, for example, standard letters, emails or

 

faxes are sent to potential customers who then order by returning

 

them by post, email or fax then it is likely that such an arrangement

 

falls within the definition.

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This means that businesses could claim that the sale does not fall within DSR as most of its business is done face to face. That is not what the seller is claiming in this instance and has not been used as a defence in similar cases in this forum. I stand ready to be corrected if any other posters have seen this defence to avoid DSR

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Have another read of the OFT 1.6 above. They say if it was done by distance comms, then they consider it comes under DSR.

 

I'm not sure if it is saying the seller has to send the first email and the buyer responds to those and that classes it as DSR or if the buyer can intitiate contact.

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We're probably getting into hypothetical territory now and all I was really trying to point out was that posting a definitive statement that DSRs apply in this or some other case may not, in fact, be true. The law is open to interpretation and DSR is not as clear cut as people think. afcwben - in his/her last post has understood - a business could claim DSR doesn't apply because they have no ’organised distance sales or service provision scheme’ (thanks Conniff) and normally only sell face to face (it would be taken on a case by case basis I suppose and may not be successful). Selling by distance means once or twice wouldn't necessarily mean you are a "distance seller". In the same way that buying cars and doing them up in your spare time wouldn't necessarily mean you are a car dealer - it's a question of degree and ultimately for the courts to decide.

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Hello again . I got a letter yesterday from trading standards stating they had written to the seller to explain why i am entitled to a FULL refund and that is all i have to report as yet .

 

It seems there has been a fair amount of hypothetical debate since i last looked which i read with some interest . I have to say i feel it EXTREMELY unlikely any court would question the DSR and how it is applied in this case as the vast majority of monies has already been returned in reply to the DSR . Hence the regs and the duty they impose have been accepted by the seller . As far as i'm concerned the outstanding £350 has been stolen as the car never left the seller at all .

 

Had the seller advertised a non refundable deposit of £350 he would be within his rights to keep it , but he didn't and therefore he isn't .

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  • 3 weeks later...

No response from anyone so i decided court is my only option . I phoned the office of fair trading just to let them know and was asked NOT to issue proceedings as investigation has begun and there is no question i will be refunded in full when the investigation is concluded .

 

By the looks of things Karhouse might well have put his whole business at risk for the sake of £350 !

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Thanks for the update, please keep us posted.

 

Please Note

The advice I offer will be based on the information given by the person needing it. All my advice is based on my experiences and knowledge gained in working in the motor and passenger transport industries in various capacities. Although my advice will always be sincere, it should be used as guidence only.

 

I would always urge to seek face to face professional advice for clarification prior to taking any action.

 

Please click my reputation 'star' button at the bottom of my profile window on the left if you found my advice useful.

Please Note

 

The advice I offer will be based on the information given by the person needing it. All my advice is based on my experiences and knowledge gained in working in the motor and passenger transport industries in various capacities. Although my advice will always be sincere, it should be used as guidence only.

 

I would always urge to seek face to face professional advice for clarification prior to taking any action.

 

Please click my reputation 'star' button at the bottom of my profile window on the left if you found my advice useful.

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He has so far failed to respond at all to myself or the OFT . The OFT is in contact with his local authorities and have commented on the professional appearance of the Karhouse website . Its seems possible "Rus" (the only name i've been given by the seller) at Karhouse has pretty much offered himself up to be put under a Government microscope as far as his finances are concerned .

 

I doubt i will have much more to report until after christmas but please be assured i appreciate all the advice given and will be sure to keep you all informed .

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It would seem as if this one of the myriad of non-registered car sales that share and move stock around, have no accounts to speak of and are hard to track down and take to book as there is no real business to speak of.

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Is the Karhouse website the one with a picture of a cartoon car that is likely to be subject to copyright and potentially other forms of intellectual property rights? If so I wonder if they've sought permission to use the imagine or licensed the rights?

 

If I've stumbled across a different website then sorry!

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Sequenci you are correct the cartoon car is on their website . And Coniff i am inclined to think you may be correct but in the current financial climate this is exactly the sort of thing the gov wants to stop and hide as they may , all websites and vehicles MUST be registered to somebody . So i very much doubt it would take much resourcefulness to track down those responsible .

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  • 2 weeks later...

Thanks for that Conniff . The OFT phoned me yesterday it seems karhouse claim the £350 the kept was for leather repairs of some kind which i supposedly requested before the car was delivered . Fortunately i have the original advert all printed off to prove the car had no leather in it , and ironically i have since bought the only KZJ90 in the UK with leather seats from new . The owners manual states quite clearly Toyota did not supply the leather and it was outsourced to the buyers specification when the car was supplied new .

 

Please note to prevent confusion the landcruiser 90 is a short wheel base 2 door car , whereas the landcruiser 95 is a long wheel base 4 door and did sometimes come with leather seats .

Edited by minus-millions
missed a bit
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lol - So I buy this wonderful item and when it arrives it is broken, so I send it back but the seller keeps some of the purchase price to repair this wonderful item.

 

Sounds like he is on to a good thing.

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Please correct me if I am wrong, but I was told that if a seller is not a registered business then the DSR did not apply?

It is also an offence to pretend to be an individual when you are actually a business. Karhouse has been trading for a long time as I can remember them when we were looking for another 4 x 4.

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