Child Tax Credits cut off due to slowness of Job Centre

[WebMaster]

Posting this on behalf of a friend of the family, so sorry if the details are a bit hazy ...

 

They claim child tax credits; apparently you need to renew the claim each year. So, he rang up to renew, and was told that he needed to supply them with his exact earnings for the year. He'd been on Job Seekers Allowance for part of the year, so explained this, and told them he'd contact the Job Centre to get the exact figure (and would be in touch again once he had it).

 

It took something like 4 months before the Job Centre finally provided the information. He phoned them at least a dozen times and was given various excuses. On one occasion he was told that they now had the information and would post it off to him the next morning - it didn't arrive until 6 weeks later.

 

During this time, the Child Tax Credit people told him that he'd missed the deadline for renewing. On top of that, they are now saying that he owes them money (I'm not quite sure why - overpayment perhaps?)

 

He explained that the hold-up had been with the Job Centre, and this time was told that exact earnings figures weren't needed - an estimate would have been enough (and of course, they denied having said that exact figures were needed).

 

He's been told that he has the right to appeal against the decision blah blah blah, and is being sent an appeal form. Is this the best way forward do you think? Or should he be looking at something more proactive and aggressive?

[id6052]

make a new claim

 

submit an appeal against termination of previous award and overpayment

 

request copies of all telephone recordings

[flumps1976]

Also the information required would have needed to have been obtained from the Benefits Centre not the JCP as JCP staff are not benefit processors and this information is not something they are required to provide, any customers who approached JCP were re-directed to contact the BC as it has been for the last few years.

[WebMaster]

Ok, I've got the telephone recordings etc from HMRC (still waiting for recordings from Benefits Centre). They *don't* confirm what my friend said (that HMRC told him on one occassion that he needed to provide exact earnings - an estimate wasn't enough - and at a later date that an estimate would have been fine). Annoying because my friend is potentially wasting my time, telling me HMRC were telling him porkies when that doesn't seem to be the case. Best I have is an operator saying 'you need to supply your earnings from the previous year; JCP/BC will be able to provide these for you.

 

Interestingly, one telephone call is missing. HMRC provided a CD of the recordings along with a print-out showing the time and date of each recording, the telephone number it was from, and their own internal reference number. One of these calls on the print-out doesn't appear on the CD, and HMRC explain in there notes that any missing calls are because they couldn't be retrieved for 'technical reasons'. Sounds a bit of a crap excuse to me. Is this worth persuing? It's possible that this missing call does have something useful in it.

 

Anyway, assuming HMRC didn't give them misleading information, the only other avenue of approach is that the claim renewal was delayed (delayed so long, it expired) because of JCP/BC being useless. If JCP/BC had supplied the information within a month or so, my friend would have been fine. As it was, HMRC got sick of waiting for his proof of earnings and closed the claim.

 

My friend has already appealed against the decision, explaining how JCP/BC took over 3 months to supply him with the info. HMRC didn't budge.

[WebMaster]

Update for anyone who cares ... My friend was adamant that HMRC had given him incorrect advice, despite none of the calls substantiating this. So we went through his old phone bills, and sure enough, he'd made lots of other calls to the Child Tax Credit Helpline that didn't appear in their SAR response. I'm not sure how HMRC could have accidentally missed them out - you'd think their computer system would be able to just pull up a log of calls from a particular number, or from a particular person etc. We were just lucky that he still had his old phone bills.

 

I wrote a letter for him to send to HMRC, pointing out that the 40 days was up, that they hadn't complied with the SAR in full, and offering them a further 14 days. The 14 days are up now, and no response yet. ICO next, do you think?

[fedupandold]

Update for anyone who cares ... My friend was adamant that HMRC had given him incorrect advice, despite none of the calls substantiating this. So we went through his old phone bills, and sure enough, he'd made lots of other calls to the Child Tax Credit Helpline that didn't appear in their SAR response. I'm not sure how HMRC could have accidentally missed them out - you'd think their computer system would be able to just pull up a log of calls from a particular number, or from a particular person etc. We were just lucky that he still had his old phone bills.

 

I wrote a letter for him to send to HMRC, pointing out that the 40 days was up, that they hadn't complied with the SAR in full, and offering them a further 14 days. The 14 days are up now, and no response yet. ICO next, do you think?

 

You are actually taking on Revenue & Customs? Wow, I've been the one that 'kicked back' many times when a taxpayer had the nerve to question my authority or honesty!

[renegadeimp]

You should make a complaint to the ICO and see what they say, then take them to small claims for disclosure providing you have concrete proof that you contacted them and those calls were not in the SAR. Knowing HMRC, they have 'accidently omitted' some due to an 'admin error'

[fedupandold]

Ok, I've got the telephone recordings etc from HMRC (still waiting for recordings from Benefits Centre). They *don't* confirm what my friend said (that HMRC told him on one occassion that he needed to provide exact earnings - an estimate wasn't enough - and at a later date that an estimate would have been fine). Annoying because my friend is potentially wasting my time, telling me HMRC were telling him porkies when that doesn't seem to be the case. Best I have is an operator saying 'you need to supply your earnings from the previous year; JCP/BC will be able to provide these for you.

 

Interestingly, one telephone call is missing. HMRC provided a CD of the recordings along with a print-out showing the time and date of each recording, the telephone number it was from, and their own internal reference number. One of these calls on the print-out doesn't appear on the CD, and HMRC explain in there notes that any missing calls are because they couldn't be retrieved for 'technical reasons'. Sounds a bit of a crap excuse to me. Is this worth persuing? It's possible that this missing call does have something useful in it.

 

Anyway, assuming HMRC didn't give them misleading information, the only other avenue of approach is that the claim renewal was delayed (delayed so long, it expired) because of JCP/BC being useless. If JCP/BC had supplied the information within a month or so, my friend would have been fine. As it was, HMRC got sick of waiting for his proof of earnings and closed the claim.

 

My friend has already appealed against the decision, explaining how JCP/BC took over 3 months to supply him with the info. HMRC didn't budge.

 

Let me give you an example of the futility of arguing with Revenue & Customs.

 

I have a friend who has recently ceased trading as self employed at the end of February 2013.. He received WTC up to the end of March 2013. Revenue & Customs were kept fully in the picture.

 

His wife was awarded Attendance Allowance Highest Rate as from May 2012. The money started to go into their account on the 11th January 2013 but the actual decision notice never arrived. He contacted them about this and eventually they sent him a copy of the Decision Notice bearing a date - 7th January 2013 - on the 25th February 2013.

The day he received this copy of the original Decision Notice he telephoned Revenue & Customs wanting to make a claim for Severe Disability Premium, backdated to May 2012.

 

Unfortunately Revenue & Customs pointed out that the date of the Decision Notice was more than 1 month before they were contacted by him and as such they cannot backdate the element any earlier than when they received his letter.

 

No amount of argument was accepted by Revenue & Customs that the Decision Notice although dated 7th January 2013 was not received until the 25th February 2013.

 

That 'cock up' by the DWP cost my friend over £1000 of lost back pay.

[tomtom256]

Could they not have just gotten the information from bank statements in the first place or am I missing something within the blame game?

[fedupandold]

Could they not have just gotten the information from bank statements in the first place or am I missing something within the blame game?

 

Not really, They, like the DWP and the LA's always want the info to come from a government source. I have personally had many examples where the DWP have given LA's completely wrong information. They cannot and will not change that info no matter what you do.

 

Yes you can give HMRC estimates, but as for evidence they want it from the horses mouth.

[tomtom256]

I always renew using my P45 and bank statements, never had an issue yet and your friend could have done this and then once they had the full info could have had the award re-adjusted if the figures differed by calling again.

 

As for thr SAR try the ICO but the missing call may just not have been recorded their end so they wouldn't be able to give you the info.

[Hacked_Off]

Why didn't he just use the p45 he would have been sent when signing off?

[WebMaster]

Why didn't he just use the p45 he would have been sent when signing off?

 

Really, it's like banging my head against the wall trying to help him, but he's an in-law, and I feel obliged to help.

 

The reason that nothing has happened on this thread in the past 4 months is that me and the mrs got tired of trying to help when he seemed so unmotivated and uninterested. The ball was in his court, so we waited for him to come back to us. Turns out he's spent the past 4 months ignoring the letters in the believe that it would just go away.

 

HMRC replied in August with a CD containing a single extra phone call. There are still calls missing, despite me having given them the dates and times of some of them. No explanation as to why. It's clearly Small Claims and ICO time ... well it is if there's anything to be gained from it. I really can't be chewed with taking on HMRC for breaching the DPA if the missing phone calls don't help my friend's cause. It really boils down to whether HMRC giving him incorrect advice is enough to appeal against their decision.

[antone]

HMRC giving incorrect general advice is not grounds for appeal, but it seems he's arguing that he was given incorrect advice specific to his claim - that specific figures were needed when actually, an estimate would have sufficed. Is that correct as far as you understand it?

 

There are also time limits for appeals. I'm not much of an HMRC guy, though. I'll ask someone for help.

[estellyn]

OK. You mentioned that an appeal was put in, what happened with this? The process for appeals is the appellant makes the appeal, the HMRC look at the appeal and make a decision and then the matter should be forwarded to the Tribunal's Service for a hearing and decision. Unfortunately, HMRC are pretty...interesting with their forms and sometimes when you ask for an appeal form, they send a form merely requesting a review of the decision or take an appeal as a request for a review. If his case hasn't been passed to the Tribunal's service then he needs to find out why and if the original request WAS an appeal then he needs to insist his case is progressed to the Tribunal's Service.

 

Whether or not the case has any chance of success is hard to tell. Renewal needs to be completed by 31st July of that year, extensions can be granted in cases where HMRC has been late in requesting renewal info but this doesn't apply in this case. The procedure if renewal info is not received is to cancel the claim for that year, meaning that all payments made from April 6th to 31st July then become owing as an overpayment.

 

HMRC accept estimates of income at the point of renewal and then require that exact info is later provided, I think by the following January but I'm a bit hazy on that. I know you feel you may have been messed around by your in law - this is possible or he could have gotten hold of the wrong end of the stick, or it is possible he did speak to someone poorly trained who did tell him exact info was needed.

 

What dates are the missing call recordings? Only ones between when the renewal request was received up until 31st of July will make any difference to an appeal. Were there calls during this period from your in law stating that he couldn't get the exact figures? If so what was the HMRC response on the call?

[WebMaster]

Well, assuming my in-law has remembered it correctly (which is by no means certain), in one of the missing calls he was told that an estimate wasn't enough - that it needed to be an exact figure, and that he could get this from the Benefits Centre. They didn't say he *had* to get it from the BC though, and I'm sure he could have used his own initiative and checked his bank statements.

 

You're right that the case hadn't been passed to the Tribunal - he'd just had a review. I'll pursue that once we've got the missing recordings, which should provide more evidence to help his cause.

[estellyn]

Well, assuming my in-law has remembered it correctly (which is by no means certain), in one of the missing calls he was told that an estimate wasn't enough - that it needed to be an exact figure, and that he could get this from the Benefits Centre. They didn't say he *had* to get it from the BC though, and I'm sure he could have used his own initiative and checked his bank statements.

 

You're right that the case hadn't been passed to the Tribunal - he'd just had a review. I'll pursue that once we've got the missing recordings, which should provide more evidence to help his cause.

 

There's an absolute 13 month time limit for appeals, so he may need to get on with the appeal more promptly.

[WebMaster]

When is the 13 months from? The date on which he should have renewed? Or the date when they told him they were stopping his tax credits?

[estellyn]

When is the 13 months from? The date on which he should have renewed? Or the date when they told him they were stopping his tax credits?

 

It's 13 months from any decision he wants to appeal. So if he asked for a review, then the decision from the review is appealable, as is the decision saying his tax credits were stopped, but he needs to appeal the latest decision asap.