Friends Tesco Credit Card CCA - is it valid?

[Let Them Knock]

In helping a friend to deal with her debt problems, I wrote to her creditors requesting copies of Consumer Credit Agreements.

 

Tesco responded with a photocopy of a signed agreement for an account that is in default and being (slowly) paid under a DMP.

 

I have read posts on here about checking the validity of agreement (interest rates, minimum payments, etc) but much of the information seems very dated.

So, my question is: 'Is there any advantage in checking the validity of a credit card CCAs now and, if so, does anyone have a link or advice to help me in making the check?'

 

I ask because I am trying to achieve an affordable F&F for her.

 

Thanks

[citizenB]

Tesco agreements are pretty much tied up nicely.. so there might be no mileage in you doing it for this particular debt.

 

Was there any PPI or charges that could be reclaimed ?

 

When was the agreement entered into ?

[Let Them Knock]

Tesco agreements are pretty much tied up nicely.. so there might be no mileage in you doing it for this particular debt.

 

Was there any PPI or charges that could be reclaimed ?

No PPI - other charges not known (statements only for the last 6 years) - the SAR may show more when it eventually comes.

 

When was the agreement entered into ?

2002 - were their CCAs generally up to scratch back then?

Thanks

[citizenB]

OH had a Tesco CC and yes, when he received the copy, it was one of the better ones. However, they had added PPI when it was definitely not a product he should have had.

 

They were one of the better companies to deal with when approached about reduced payment plans.. stopped interest immediately, although they insisted on issuing a Default Notice first. They kep the payment plan in house and the person who was most approachable was (is) .. .

 

 

Tesco Personal Finance

Credit Card Operations

PO Box 5747

Southend on Sea

SS1 9AJ

Attention : DL Munn

Recoveries Manager - Collections

Hope that helps..

[Let Them Knock]

Thank you CitizenB. A name, particularly of someone approachable, is a great help.

[citizenB]

[Let Them Knock]

Here is a scan of the CCA sent by Tesco Bank.

 

Please can anyone advise me if there are any omissions or discrepancies that would help me in negotiating a (low) F&F settlement?

 

I notice it doesn't contain either APR or term - is this relevant on a credit card CCA?

 

[ATTACH]38953[/ATTACH]

 

Advice appreciated.

[citizenB]

Hmm, that is different to OH's... do they make any reference to terms elsewhere ? There should be more than just that one page.. !

[robcag]

I agree with citizenB, there should be more than that, and there's no reference to terms overleaf/attached/enclosed.

 

Looks unenforceable to me.

 

Rob

[Let Them Knock]

Sorry, that is down to me. I should have mentioned that it came with a photocopied standard set of terms. Of course, I don't know if these were the terms applicable back in 2002.

 

Here they are (scanned as two separate pages for easier reading):

 

Also enclosed was a signed copy of her most recent statement.

 

[ATTACH]38956[/ATTACH]

[robcag]

I've not had a proper examination of those terms, just a quick look so I won't comment on their contents.

 

However, these must be an exact copy of the terms, if any, which were presented to your friend with the application at the time it was signed in order that it can be argued that they form part of the alleged agreement. Does she remember if that was so, or does she have a copy of the original tucked away somewhere?

 

Rob

[Let Them Knock]

I've not had a proper examination of those terms, just a quick look so I won't comment on their contents.

 

However, these must be an exact copy of the terms, if any, which were presented to your friend with the application at the time it was signed in order that it can be argued that they form part of the alleged agreement. Does she remember if that was so, or does she have a copy of the original tucked away somewhere?

 

Rob

 

She has no recollection of having received any Terms and Conditions - she certainly has no record/copy of any.

 

On re-reading the CCA I cannot find any reference to T&Cs (but my eyes are knackered). Presumably this is relevant to the enforcement of the agreement?

Or am I missing something here?

 

Thanks

LTK

[robcag]

Firstly, IMHO, it is highly unlikely the application and separate 'General Conditions' are linked, because;

 

They have taken the trouble to describe where the sections referred to in section 8 (signature area) of the application can be found on the form. i.e. they refer to sections of the application headed "Your Information" and "Keeping You Informed" and tell you exactly where to find them on the sheet.

 

They also say " ... Sign it only if you want to be legally bound by its terms."; but they don't bother to say where those terms are so it can be assumed that they can only be referring to the contents of that application sheet. Why did they not say "... terms contained within the section headed 'General Conditions' "?

 

If the documents are not linked then I'd say several prescribed terms are missing.

 

Referring to the prescribed terms, I quote from elsewhere;

 

 

The prescribed terms are contained in schedule 6 column 2 of the Consumer Credit (Agreements) Regulations 1983 (SI 1983/1553), and are inter alia: - A term stating the credit limit or the manner in which it will be determined or that there is no credit limit, a term stating the rate of any interest on the credit to be provided under the agreement, and a term stating how the debtor is to discharge his obligations under the agreement to make the repayments, which may be expressed by reference to a combination of any of the following—

1. Number of repayments;

2. Amount of repayments;

3. Frequency and timing of repayments;

4. Dates of repayments;

The manner in which any of the above may be determined; or in any other way, and any power of the creditor to vary what is payable.

 

 

I think you are right that even if they argue the 2 documents are linked, they have failed to state the interest rate. I think they have also failed to state the credit limit or how it will be determined.

 

Rob

Edited October 24, 2012 by robcag

[Let Them Knock]

Right - how about a game of spot the errors?

 

What can you see that may invalidate this CCA? To get it started how about....

 

No reference to the T&Cs.

No signature by the creditor.

 

Over to you now....

[Let Them Knock]

As previously posted, I now have a copy of a CCA relating to a credit card taken out in 2002 (a friend's account).

 

[ATTACH]39084[/ATTACH]

 

As you can see from the above, the quality is very poor - certainly not what I would expect if it is a 1st copy of a real agreement.

 

I suspect it is either a copy of a copy of a copy or it is taken from a microfiche scan,

 

I have already sent a SAR to RBOS (with the numbers of this and other accounts) but that is still weeks away (and may not even include this Tesco account).

 

Before I get into the complexities of if the CCA is enforceable, can anyone tell me if there is any way of determining if they do actually still have the original agreement?

 

Thanks.

[BRIGADIER2JCS]

This may well be a copy of the original agreement back in 2002 the app and agreement were often the same thing, the production of this together with proof of acceptance and useage of a credit facility may well lead a judge to conclude that an account existed and the debt subsists.

[Let Them Knock]

Hi Brig and thanks for the quick reply.

 

My understanding was that, without the original signed CCA (as it is pre 2007), the debt would not be enforceable in court - am I wrong?

[dx100uk]

as advised you need to becareful.

 

its all verywell looking for a paperwork wriggle to get out of debts

but if the debt has been serviced for several years

it'd be a blind judge that agrees the debt is not yours.

 

dx

[Let Them Knock]

as advised you need to becareful.

 

its all verywell looking for a paperwork wriggle to get out of debts

but if the debt has been serviced for several years

it'd be a blind judge that agrees the debt is not yours.

 

dx

 

What a disappointing reply and attitude, particularly from a member of the site team.

 

How about a bit less speculation and finger pointing then?

 

At NO point have I said anything about avoiding debt here or saying it doesn't exist!

 

Before ANYONE gets on a moral high-horse let me say I have recently made a full and final settlement offer on this debt which was been refused by the creditor.

 

Does that sound like 'wriggling out' of anything to you?

 

I am looking for 'negotiating tools' here.

 

But of you can't or won't help, just say so, preferably without subjecting me to your moralising.

 

HTH

[BRIGADIER2JCS]

Hi Brig and thanks for the quick reply.

 

My understanding was that, without the original signed CCA (as it is pre 2007), the debt would not be enforceable in court - am I wrong?

 

A copy would suffice I think, there is a consierable amount of case law that has altered the perception of what is enforceable and what isn't.

[citizenB]

Is that ALL they sent you?

 

For an s78 request to be fully complied with you MUST receive.

 

Copy of or reconstruction of the agreement/application

Terms and conditions from both inception and at the time of default or currently if not in default.

If varied at any time, then the varied terms are to be provided as well.

Plus a statement of account.

 

I am quite surprised if that is all they sent you, because Tescos are usually pretty much on the ball with the provision of documents from that period of time.

[BRIGADIER2JCS]

This may have been RBS rather than the now Tesco Bank,it does have the old card services address Priory Cres Southend on it.

[dx100uk]

What a disappointing reply and attitude, particularly from a member of the site team.

 

How about a bit less speculation and finger pointing then?

 

At NO point have I said anything about avoiding debt here or saying it doesn't exist!

 

Before ANYONE gets on a moral high-horse let me say I have recently made a full and final settlement offer on this debt which was been refused by the creditor.

 

Does that sound like 'wriggling out' of anything to you?

 

I am looking for 'negotiating tools' here.

 

But of you can't or won't help, just say so, preferably without subjecting me to your moralising.

 

HTH

 

its not a moral issue

CAG does not condone debt avoidance, we deal with the issues of if you have been 'wronged'

 

without further info concerning the debt, we cant move this fwd with scant info.

 

now why did the OC refuse the F&F?

 

tell us about the debt please

 

dx

[Let Them Knock]

Is that ALL they sent you?

 

For an s78 request to be fully complied with you MUST receive.

 

Copy of or reconstruction of the agreement/application Received - copy posted in first post.

Terms and conditions from both inception and at the time of default or currently if not in default. One set of T&Cs - I don't know when they date from - attached now

If varied at any time, then the varied terms are to be provided as well. Don't know if this happened.

Plus a statement of account. Received

 

I am quite surprised if that is all they sent you, because Tescos are usually pretty much on the ball with the provision of documents from that period of time.

 

The Account was defaulted in 12/2006 and has been paid under a (self administered) DMP since then.

 

[ATTACH]39091[/ATTACH]

 

T&Cs attached now.

 

Thanks

[Let Them Knock]

without further info concerning the debt, we cant move this fwd with scant info.

 

now why did the OC refuse the F&F? That I do not know - the F&F offer was made in May and was for approximately 25% of the debt.

 

tell us about the debt please Please see below.

 

dx

 

I am doing this on behalf of a friend whose failed marriage left her with some £35,000 of debt.

 

She had adhered to a (self administered) DMP for almost seven years now.

 

She is barely able to keep to it now (public sector worker = pay freeze).

 

Credit card taken in 2002

Defaulted in 12/2006 (when DMP started)

Monthly payment of £8.00 being made

Balance £1300

F&F offer made in May of £350 - refused.

No PPI

No details of any charges made before 2006.

 

RBS SARed 4 weeks ago (there are other RBS accounts in her debt)

This is by far her smallest single debt.

 

Copy agreement and T&Cs posted in previous posts in this thread.

 

The intention (hope) is that a small enough F&Fs can be reached to clear this and her other debts.

 

Help/advice much appreciated.