Scammed by National company...help please

[joe5]

Personally i'd say you've been well and truly ripped off, this type of fast fit company are renowned for telling unsuspecting customers especially women that they need work doing when it isn't necessary, brake pipe is extremely cheap and only needs one nut at each and the pipe flaring, a front to rear pipe can be made up for less than £10 and can be fitted in no more than 15 minutes unless one of the nuts have siezed, even then its not a difficult job to release, then its a five minute job to bleed the system.

 

I'm afraid this is how this type of company make their money, it's MOT time and people are pleased to get their car through if it only cost's a couple of hundred pounds.

 

You need to find a good independent garage or even a mobile mechanic to do your servicing and if your car ever fails its MOT again ask your mechanic if it really needs the work they say it needs, if he says not, you have grounds to complain to the Ministry of Transport, you can appeal against the MOT failure if your mechanic tells you the work is not needed.

[joe5]

Just to give you an idea of some prices for Rover parts this link shows Rover front discs starting at £11.45 for the 25 and 45 series and a full set of 4 pads at £16.94

https://www.sapmotorparts.com/shop/english/

Put your car part and vehicle and type in the drop down boxes, this will give you an idea of what the parts should really cost, thats even if they were needed, replacing discs and pads is a very simple and quick job and should not take more than 2 hours for all four wheels.

[kc_31]

Luckily I have now found an independent mechanic who is just around the corner (the guy who did the report for me).

 

He was recommended by a friend of mine, it's just a shame he didn't think to recommend him a few weeks sooner! Oh well s**t happens!

 

I now have a 52 plate citroen xsara which has just been serviced and MOT'd so hopefully I'll be ok for a while!

 

Thanks again for all the help.

 

Kirsty.

[joe5]

Make sure you time your service interval to occur a couple of weeks before your MOT is due, then your mechanic can include a pre MOT check with the service, this way you will know if your taking the car elsewhere for its MOT that it doesn't need any work doing, also you can take your car for an MOT up to 4 weeks prior to your old MOT running out as long as you take your old MOT certificate and advise the tester, this way you will have a 13 month MOT, If it passes of course

[kc_31]

Thanks Joe I'll do that.

[evansg81]

Hi, I found this thread through searching for Citroen Xsara brake pipes, as I've just had an MOT with a 'Fast-Fit' ( you can't get better than their fast-fit fitters, apparently) which has only failed on the brake pipes. Apparently they are very slightly seeping fluid. They reckon it will take an entire day to replace them, and want to charge me £300+ ? I will get some more quotes but I wondered if anyone here could shed any light on whether that's reasonable. Thanks

[syrill-sneer]

Evansg81, that sounds pretty expensive to me. Going on the assumption their labour rate be around the £40-£50 per hour (and thats pretty high for a fast-fit outlet), I cant see it would take 6 to 7+ hours to fit even a set of metal brake pipes all round. Cost of parts would be very little, I would imagine the company keeps the copper pipe and unions in stock as cosumable items. Which brakepipe(s) did the car fail on?

[miniconverter]

Depends which pipes it has failed on or did it fail on them all. Can't give you a labour time for the job as the software we use only gives times for hoses not pipes and to be honest brake pipes don't seem to be one of the many faults on french cars and can't remember replacing any on a Xsara.

 

How old is the car?

 

Also seems like a very strange description of the fault "very slightly seeping fluid" as I can't remember seeing a pipe that very slightly seeped but have only been in the motor trade for 30 years so might have missed them. Seen plenty with excess corrosion and a few that have p**sed fluid out when they have rotted through.

 

Do you have a copy of the fail as this should give an accurate description of the fault and which pipes and I should be able to give you a rough idea of the labour time

[joe5]

Take your car to a local independent garage that is recomended by a friend or get a mobile mechanic to look at the car, or better still if your in the AA or RAC get them to look at it, they will confirm or refute whether the pipes need replacing.

 

Ive never known an instance when all brake pipes have needed replacing on a vehicle, it just doesn't happen because they are all fixed at different locations therefore rot or get worn over a different length of time and as has already been stated, they don't weep fluid they burst with the intense pressure once they have rotted through.

The only things that do weep fluid are the brake calipers or brake slave cylinders or master cylinders when a rubber seal perishes which again is a rare occasion.

 

Before you do drive the car make sure there is brake fluid in the master cylinder and don't go to far, just far enough to have the vehicle checked which is why a mobile mechanic may be best for you on this occasion, you won't lose all your braking abiltiy because of the dual braking circuitry but you will lose 50% of your brakes if you lose the fluid from one side of the circuit.

 

£300 is an awful lot of money to spend on something that probably doesn't need replacing.

[evansg81]

Hi, thanks for your replies

 

I took the car to a Citroen garage nearby and they said there's nothing wrong with the brake pipes, and the car has passed the MOT. Scary that Kwik Fit think it's OK to try to [problem] people out of £350 for absolutely nothing.

 

I feel like I should try to claim back my MOT fee or something, but I know I wouldn't get anywhere, it'd be 'in our opinion blah blah'

[kc_31]

complain to vosa

[gbjadyy]

strange sounding case this one???? £588 for what exactly???

also if you go back to the garage you will find a disclaimer somewhere about possible damage to engines duirng an MOT (this is because the engine must have the revs held quite high for a period of time on the emissions testing) this is direction given by a machine nota mechanic under the VOSA rules for MOT, also Rovers are prone to head gasket problems on the K series engine and many can fail this way as can many fail during normal use through no fault of the driver, personally i really cant see a valid case here as the garages own customer records could give a good indication to acourt of how common this problem is on rovers aswell as the MOT disclaimer, sorry to bear bad news but i think maybe this is a case of cut your losses and run!!

[gbjadyy]

just a quick note on the fast fit type garages, many of these have managers under pressure to meet sales targets each month with penalties if they fail, unfortunately many targets are unrealistics ones so the management end up trying to get more out of the public than they might orhterwise do, i know it sounds bad but many of these guys are simply trying to do there jobs under increasing pressure to make more money otherwise they maybe out of a job, so its not really there fault its the company policies at fault but this is not regulated good enough and so falls back on the public paying for work they dont need, (if you beieve you have this sort of problem dont blame the branch manager directely take it up with the main offices instead and try to help the branch manager in being able to conduct a more sensible approach for everyone) he has to try and sleep at night knowing whats happening and he does not benifit anymore for it but fights to meet targets to ensure his own job

[kc_31]

Hi gbjadyy,

The Area Manager agreed to repair the car. Now why would he do that if it wasn't their fault in the first place? I understand what you're saying about targets, but if a Manager can't sleep at night because of pressure, then don't you think he's in the wrong job?! Besides, the Manager at the branch I went to had a stinking attitude anyway!

[gbjadyy]

good for you and i am am glad it turned out ok for you, but i notice you say the area manager sorted it (this is because the branch manger would have to refer the problem to him), and i would have thought they probably agreed in the end to save any problems being made public rahter than admitting fault, after a few of these fast fit type places ahve hit the media in recent times and i think there now trying to escape the brush they are being tarred with, anyhow once again i am glad it came good for you and hope you do ok with your next garage experiance (believ me there are very reputable and trustworthy garages out there that really dont deserve being painted with the same brush (unfortunately the motor trade in general appears to be seen as a ripp off for the general public these days although many dont deserve it (it takes years to build up a good reputaion and one member of public to ruin it for the whole trade) sad really but very true

[kc_31]

The area manager phoned me before I had even called the branch to complain. He phoned because I had left a bad review about them on another website and he read it! He wanted me to change or delete the review. I had written the review the day after the M.O.T, before the whole head gasket episode began. When he asked me to change the review, I told him about the head gasket having failed two days after the M.O.T. He started going on about how common the problem is with Rovers blah blah blah until I said I had the car booked in for an independent report by another mechanic who has 15 years experience with Rovers, that shut him up lol! He told me to call him once the report was done. To cut a long story short (well shorter anyway) I called him back, he then called the mechanic who had done the report to verify what I had said. A day or so later he called back to say that they would repair the car.

[gbjadyy]

Good for you but as you have said you had already given a bad review on a public board so therefore that is a type of media and proves it was because they want to try and play down the bad reputaion that these fast fit places have been reciving in recent times, I am happy for you that it was sorted bt i still stand by what i said about MOT regulations being laid down by vosa not the independent garage and part of the test means hold the revs quite high for a period of time, whilst this is fine for most cars theres always one somewhere that simply wont stand up to it and thats not the fault of the garage or mechanic its simply bad luck and thats all, When emissions testing first started back it was stopped again only about 8 weeks after strating due to the sheer volume of cars being reorted as recieving engine damage and the whole system was then revamped with new guidlines on how many revs should be applied to the engine during the test, over the years things have improved more and more and cars are these days more robust whe built aswell which helps so now theres not that many that actually do suffer damage and most that do are usually ones that already have excessive wear or mechaicle problems present at the time ofthe test and the by going through the test can bring the problem to light!!. ROvers are reknowned for the head gasket proble aswell as serious cylinder head corrosion which does make them suseptable to suffering failure ifthe revs are held quite high on an already worn or high mileage car (i have seen serious corrosion on K series cylinder heads with mileage onl showing 15,000 miles though) so be warned that even the newinest of cars can suffer if they already have design flaws

[petej2811]

Good for you but as you have said you had already given a bad review on a public board so therefore that is a type of media and proves it was because they want to try and play down the bad reputaion that these fast fit places have been reciving in recent times, I am happy for you that it was sorted bt i still stand by what i said about MOT regulations being laid down by vosa not the independent garage and part of the test means hold the revs quite high for a period of time, whilst this is fine for most cars theres always one somewhere that simply wont stand up to it and thats not the fault of the garage or mechanic its simply bad luck and thats all, When emissions testing first started back it was stopped again only about 8 weeks after strating due to the sheer volume of cars being reorted as recieving engine damage and the whole system was then revamped with new guidlines on how many revs should be applied to the engine during the test, over the years things have improved more and more and cars are these days more robust whe built aswell which helps so now theres not that many that actually do suffer damage and most that do are usually ones that already have excessive wear or mechaicle problems present at the time ofthe test and the by going through the test can bring the problem to light!!. ROvers are reknowned for the head gasket proble aswell as serious cylinder head corrosion which does make them suseptable to suffering failure ifthe revs are held quite high on an already worn or high mileage car (i have seen serious corrosion on K series cylinder heads with mileage onl showing 15,000 miles though) so be warned that even the newinest of cars can suffer if they already have design flaws

 

 

Would you say that you were employed by one of these 'fast-rip-off' *ahem* fast-fit places?

 

If not you should be. You should carry sandwich board with their name on it and cry tales of quality service while striding forcefully through the street, your face a beaming expression of pride.

 

Good, now that I have that out of my system we can continue.

 

You mention this-

 

"I am happy for you that it was sorted bt i still stand by what i said about MOT regulations being laid down by vosa not the independent garage and part of the test means hold the revs quite high for a period of time, whilst this is fine for most cars theres always one somewhere that simply wont stand up to it and thats not the fault of the garage or mechanic its simply bad luck"

 

Perhaps they are but if garages rev engines for long periods of time and cause damage they are liable unless they can rely on an exclusion clause. They are professional mechanics and as such must be considered competent to undertake such a task without destroying cars. The exclusion clauses garages refer to particularly at places like 'Crap-Fit' are not made known to the customer beforehand and do not form anything but the back of a recipt, which cannot be relied on after the contract has been made. This is effectively a cheap get out because most of the public know no better.

 

You also said this-

 

"also Rovers are prone to head gasket problems on the K series engine and many can fail this way as can many fail during normal use through no fault of the driver, personally i really cant see a valid case here as the garages own customer records could give a good indication to acourt of how common this problem is on rovers aswell as the MOT disclaimer, sorry to bear bad news but i think maybe this is a case of cut your losses and run!!"

 

It's not a case of cutting and running. If the garages know about the problem and don't take care then this is called negligence. It involves tortious liability and usually results in damages. Cut and run indeed, where's that motor trades union card of yours?

 

Then you said this-

 

"just a quick note on the fast fit type garages, many of these have managers under pressure to meet sales targets each month with penalties if they fail, unfortunately many targets are unrealistics ones so the management end up trying to get more out of the public than they might orhterwise do"

 

Please... I'm under pressure so I rip people off? Give me a break. I don't care how much pressure anyone is under, adding stuff to the bill, doctoring accounting documents, swindling customers? This is what we call crime.

 

I urge that the comments of gbjadyy be taken with the sizeable dose of salt that they would appear to warrant.

[patdavies]

For a petrol engine, the emission test requires that the engine be revved to 2,500 rpm or half of maximum for 20 seconds to purge the system and then the emissiosn checked at idle.

 

The tests has to be repeated if an electric cooling fan cuts in as this changes the alternator (and thus engine) load which is conpenstaed by the ECU changing the idle speed.

 

The K series engine is a petrol engine and therefore should not be revved beyond 2,500 for any part of an MoT test

[gbjadyy]

no i dont work for a fast fit!!!!!

 

rovers are prone to gasket and cylinder head faults

 

MOT regs are laid down by vosa not the garage or mecahnic

 

and VOSA will happliy supply notices to garages that can be displayed explaining the possibilty of damage

 

Personal comments should be left outside these boards !!!!!!!!!!!

 

anygood mecahnic that believes the car is in a poor state of repair will happily tell the owner that he is not willing to carry out the test because he beives it may cause damage

 

no matter how good a mechanic you are there are still cars out there that can be hiding problems and just waiting to rear there ugly heads!!!

 

All good mechanics know about rovers and other cars aswell so what do you want them to do???? every mot tester in the country to refuse the test on the these cars just so there not considered negligent?????

 

if all mechanics said they wont work on a car because there aware of a design fault that could be considered there fault then there would not be a garage in the country

 

Yes i am a fully qualified mechic and have been for 25 yrears and havemany many happy customers because i speak the truth and necer ripp anyone off, I have never had to advertise my services as my complete customer base has always been through word of mouth and from time time time there may have been problems arose whereby i have covered the full cost of repair to a car even if i am not a fault???

 

I have done well in the trade and have done so through offering and excellent and honest service to customers

I will go out of my way to explain to people exactly how a componant works and why it has failed in plain english not jargon

 

 

I never said i condone the managers of the fast fit places i just said it may not necessarly be them at fault directly, though they are at fault in-directly

 

i never said an mot tester has to rev a K series beyond 2500 revs i simply said that due to problems with this engine they can possibly fail during test, and in fact it can fail at idle speed !!!!

 

If were going to start getting picky then i am afraid there is no such car ever been built that is perfect in every way

every car out there has some sort of design flaw somewhere in it

unfortunately some can suffer more than others thats all

[patdavies]

 

 

i never said an mot tester has to rev a K series beyond 2500 revs i simply said that due to problems with this engine they can possibly fail during test, and in fact it can fail at idle speed !!!!

 

 

From your post at #37 in this thread

 

(this is because the engine must have the revs held quite high for a period of time on the emissions testing)

2,500 rpm cannot be regarded as quite high, it would equate to about 50 mph in top gear

[gbjadyy]

when a car is being emisions tested it remains stationary and different loads apply on the engine!!! this has nothing to do with the fact that this engine is known to have design flaws, like i said above these can fail at idle speed.

 

I think pat it maybe time to stop chasing round every post i make and purposely trying to argue back on every comment i make. its getting boring now!!!!!!

 

I am here to simply give what i believe to be the right advise to the best of my knowledge based on my own experiances and that of many others in the trade aswell as adhering to guidlines and laws that i know exist

 

believe me if i feel there is wrong doing on the part of the garage or mechanic i will say so, i dont have any reason to protect anyone here!!!

 

i said it before on this post it was good to find the garage fixed the car for him!!!!

i havealso said beforethat even if a garage is not strictly at fault many garages will still endevour to resolveany issues out of loyalty to there customers.

 

i am well aware of how some garages can or do operate which are well out of line and few and far between these days but most now will look after there customers!!!!

 

i bet if you had a satisfaction poll here, i would be will to bet that on the whole people would be happy with there experainces of garages over the years and only once in while run into confrontation and eventhen it would probably be when thay havegone somewhere that would not noramally use and have no idea what reputaion that garage has

 

we have al seen "garages from hell" on tv but this does not mean the entire industry is like this and should not be taken for granted that every garage out there is out to ripp you off

[patdavies]

when a car is being emisions tested it remains stationary and different loads apply on the engine!!! this has nothing to do with the fact that this engine is known to have design flaws, like i said above these can fail at idle speed.

 

Actually, no load applies as nothing significant is being driven. An engine that is not under laod, should be less likely to fail than one under load.

 

I think pat it maybe time to stop chasing round every post i make and purposely trying to argue back on every comment i make. its getting boring now!!!!!!

 

I agree, I admit that am becoming bored with your inaccuracies and opinionation. Perhaps if you were to post facts rather than simple opinion, there would be no further need to rebut your posts.

[jonni2bad]

PLEASE NOTE

 

Our site is growing rapidly and we are receiving 100s if not 1000s of new visitors every day. If they see this constant bickering they will likely turn away and go elsewhere.

 

Please go back to post No. 1 - read it again and then decide if you have something constructive to add to the thread. If not, don't post.

 

Further posts that continue in this manner will be deleted without warning.

[DorsetStrider]

As has been said else where the K series engine is known for designs flaws which result in head gasket failer.

 

Personally I would NEVER use a fast fitting or indeed any large chain garage as in my experience you will ALWAYS be ripped off. Find a good independant.

 

If you have been conned (or attempted to be conned) by an MOT garage at mot time report it to VOSA and if nessicary your local trading standards office.