Getting ESA because your illness puts employers off ever hiring you?

[bigissue 1]

The truth for a lot of people on ESA with varying conditions is that they could probably do some work, if of course the had the freedom to wake up and say yes today is a good day so I can go in to work, always knowing that they could leave if they fell ill, have all the appropriate adjustments made and so on. However it doesn't work like that attacks are too unpredictable to to commit to a regular work schedule and most employers won't touch people with even fairly mild but ongoing health issues if they get wind of them.

 

So basically it is possible that many are found fit to do some kind of work, with no real prospect of actually getting a job or if they do get one of keeping it. So does ESA cover people like this who possibly could do some work but are not likely to ever get work? To me this is a massive flaw in the system, it is difficult though. While at my recent WCA I overheard two men talking saying that they had to be on ESA because long term drug use and criminal records meant that they would never be able to find work in a sense they had a point as I can't imagine they would be very attractive to most employers (pls note this is not my personal view I feel everyone deserves a second chance).

 

I would imagine that having an illness which isn't your fault which prevents you from getting work should make someone eligiable. However I get the impression that with ESA it isn't like that. Even if you are seriously debilitated with a varying condition half of the month and that the illness is unpredictable that under ESA that doesn't matter, if you have say 15 good or ok days then you should be doing at least some work, that is enough to refuse you ESA. ATOS don't care how impossible it is for you to actually find work, the JCP or work programme can worry about that (many will go on indefinate unpaid work placements no doubt).

 

Am I right about this or does ESA offer assistance to those who have a condition that effectively makes them so unattractive to employers they are unlikely ever to find a job?

[Slatted 66]

It would certainly have made more sense for ESA to have been as you suggest above.

 

What I can see is that even ESA WRAG does nothing more than dismiss those so obviously ill to just turn up or have a phone call occasionally but force some of the less obviously sick and disabled (ie mental illness, neurological conditions, those with fluctuations/fatigue etc) through the same hoops as JSA claimants but without actually being able to force them to look for paid work. This means that on a benefit where they are not deemed fit for work they are "forced" to attend courses no matter if they fall on a good day or not or, even worse, onto unpaid unlimited work placements.

 

How, exactly, being forced on threat of sanctions, to take full time voluntary or other types of work can be justified for those with fluctuating conditions I do not know but tales are beginning to come through of those who have been unable to attend placements every day, even though they were known to have medical conditions, and then them being threatened with and applied with sancions....

 

.And I am sure I don't have to tell you how hard it can be to obtain an emergency appointment with a GP at any time and certainly to even attempt to avoid a sanction I suppose they would have to evidence "bad days" by medical evidence...GPs would find it a waste of their valuable time when it is a known condition and, as the patient is already on ESA, someone they have already stated as "unfit for work" so could reasonably be expected to struggle at times until fully fit, if ever .......

 

It is not as if anything has been set up for anyone not able to work full time for medical reasons or not able to fall into "standard" work roles, from what I have read and seen. Sadly.

Edited September 28, 2012 by Slatted

[osdset 302]

There is a glaring double standard going on with WRAG, on the one hand a claimant is regarded as having limited capability for work for 'X' months and cannot be forced to take employment, but on the other hand if mandated to the Work Programme might well be required to undergo unpaid work activity, ostensibly this is supposed to be 'community' based i.e charity shops and the like, but knowing the WP providers reputations that's likely to be the local Morrison's doing charitable shelf stacking.

 

The government's standpoint of preparing for the workplace seems to tar all WRAG claimants with the same brush, they have all either never held a job or have been so long away from work that they need re-conditioning, that's not the case for many myself included, I've been in receipt of ESA for 14 months after working for 38 years, I know what the workplace is all about thank you very much, and I don't need lessons on how to set an alarm clock.

 

The government have simply ignored the dire job availability situation, let alone the minefield that is employer prejudice, varying conditions, mobility issues, the list is a long one.

 

Being in WRAG is a kind of limbo existence, for me at least.

[osdset 302]

An article from the excellent MyLegal site which highlights the thread title.

 

Here http://mylegal.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=frontline&thread=739&page=1#2015

Click on the 'with the NHS in Southwark' link and read the ATOS Job questionnaire.

[Minibits 101]

Ocdset, that link is utterly staggering. Thanks for the link.

 

I've downloaded a copy of that questionaire, and am thinking of filling it in and including it in my wife's appeal papers, when she gets her nil points award.

 

It may not help much, but perhaps the Tribunal Service will offer her a job.

[debt4get 497]

i have always said this is 'a conflict of interest' denying people esa benefits whilst then advising employers that they shouldnt employ someone who may have to take time of with illness, as this will impinge on their operating procedures ie 'profit' is despicable in the extreme....damned if you do..damned if you don't catch22

[Slatted 66]

I don't know about anyone else but I would struggle to provide the level of information required in the medical history information in the example shown by the link and I don't have memory problems have just lived a life...

 

Anyone with a complex medical history would be put off filling in any such forms even "if" the company really intended it as a source of information and if they did not they would, presumably, not be employed and feedback to JCP/DWP would presumably lead to sanctions.....

 

I wonder if WRAG claimants have a course to help them with filling in these types of forms rather than "just" job applications......?

[Lilly_Monroe 107]

I am in the WRAG group for depression.

I am not being forced to do anything (at the moment) but I was looking at some volunteer work - just a few hours a week.

I did not fancy standing in a charity shop I wanted to do something I could hopefully get a little more out of.

But the snag comes when you tell them on the application form you suffer from depression.

This will of course stop you being able to work in many areas...because they think all people with depression are pill popping, self harming, raving lunatics..

 

So in a way it is a catch 22 situation.

 

I am not sure how I am meant to get better, I am being left alone to just get on with it - and I have now developed IBS.

My GP pushed me towards my councillor, and my councillor offers me nothing..so how am I meant to get better I am not, I am sinking further into my depression.

So when they withdraw ESA I am magically meant to have gotten better all by myself and then find a job at 56 with mental illness written all over my papers - when I cannot even find meaningful volunteer work.

 

Where is the help we so badly need - well I do.

[Zonker 31]

Holy moly i looked at the form, even a simple questionaire takes me while , filling that in youll have to be an*lly retentive. Who can remember their last tetnus jab? i know i cant.

[worried33 281]

The OP is rightm basically the asessment takes no account of how employable the person is and as such is far from reality.

 

However when one considers he real long term plans which is to supply free labour to companies, then the assesment is only looking to see if someone is capable of doing free labour.

[debt4get 497]

well personally i have been practising all day pushing a button, and moving an empty cardboard box on and off the table...i have amended my cv with 'can push a button competently and move an empty cardboard box, though not both at the same time, gissa a job!'

[osdset 302]

well personally i have been practising all day pushing a button, and moving an empty cardboard box on and off the table...i have amended my cv with 'can push a button competently and move an empty cardboard box, though not both at the same time, gissa a job!'

 

You forgot the carton of milk.

[debt4get 497]

bu**er just spent an hour amending it...now im gonna have to start all over again!!

[Lilly_Monroe 107]

bu**er just spent an hour amending it...now im gonna have to start all over again!!

 

Take your time though - best to spread the fun:)

[down'n'out 1]

IMHO, ESA is only about getting people looking(or ready to look) for work.

 

With the WCA you get the 3 outcomes.

1 :Fit for work: So you look for work.

2: WRAG: You are given work related activity (via WP or volunteer or forced to volunteer) to prepare looking for/getting ready for work

3: Support: You will get support if you decide to look for work.

[Nystagmite 1,122]

I really want to know where these jobs are where people just push buttons all day...

[debt4get 497]

don't know but ATOS seem to have a 'handle' on them....'if you can push a button you are fit for work!!!

[RaeUK 2,018]

i have always said this is 'a conflict of interest' denying people esa benefits whilst then advising employers that they shouldnt employ someone who may have to take time of with illness, as this will impinge on their operating procedures ie 'profit' is despicable in the extreme....damned if you do..damned if you don't catch22

 

Not if you're ATOSH. It's a Win Win scenario. Get paid by both sides of the fence with an added bonus of having an awful lot of data about an awful lot of people...

[Nystagmite 1,122]

Surely, if you can work, you should? Regardless of whether your illness puts employers off employing you.

[jadeybags 197]

I really want to know where these jobs are where people just push buttons all day...

 

Telesales?

[debt4get 497]

in an ideal world we would probably all like to work, getting a decent wage renumerate with the job we do, however, where there are literally hundreds applying for even the most basic job, the fact is that the moment you write any disability on the form, then your application is heading rapidly towards the bin.....when will this govt, and people realise there is not enough jobs/work out there for people who are in good health.....if someone gave me a chance of a job, and i care not what it is...i would metaphorically jump at the chance....telesales, applied, no reply from employer, shopwork, applied, no reply from employer, you name it ive applied for it..add in my age 58 and the situation only gets worse

[estellyn 3,192]

Surely, if you can work, you should? Regardless of whether your illness puts employers off employing you.

 

But how can you work if the employer won't employ you?

[estellyn 3,192]

I really want to know where these jobs are where people just push buttons all day...

 

In the hatch on the island in Lost - sadly a fictional job.

[osdset 302]

To use the ATOS mantra 'If Stephen Hawking can work, why can't you?' obvious innit, all you need is to equip yourself with some tools borrowed from the Work Programme things like an 'energy bucket', X-Ray specs to unearth all those 'hidden push button jobs', rummage through yer wardrobe until you find yer 'positive thinking head' and swap it over with the 'negative attitude' one you're wearing now.

 

If you have a mobility scooter get it fitted with a turbo charger for those last minute burst of speed, you never know when you might have to beat another applicant to that bar-code scanning position.

[estellyn 3,192]

Sure if I had personal aides all day, thousands of pounds worth of specialist equipment, access to the best medical care and treatments, I bet I could work too - are they offering to provide that then?