Mandatory consideration of revision before appeal

[speedfreek]

This legislation is designed for UNIVERSAL CREDIT!

 

It will align the new appeals process for UC with the old appeals process for JSA/ESA/etc!

 

How hard is that for you all to understand!

 

It is envisaged that there will be an all singing all dancing shiney new spangly benefit called Universal Credit! When this appears all the other benefits will be magicked away to pixie land and will then becomes elements of a single unified payment.

 

The JSA fairy - gone

The ESA Unicorn - made into glue

The Tax Credit Troll - evicted then deported for living under an under occupied bridge

The Tooth Fairy - now job sharing with the monster who lives under the bed as she only did a couple of hours a night between workfare job search sessions.

 

They will all be replaced by little bags of pixie dust. You will all get different amounts of pixie dust depending on how the evil little man who lives under the stairs awards you elements.

 

There is no ESA/JSA any more there is the base payment of UC pixie dust. You will not receive the extra pixie dust equivalent of WRAG or SG until you pass. If you fail you will have to undergo a reconsideration (as you already do now) before you can appeal your case for the extra pixie dust?

 

We all clear on this now?

[osdset]

OK let's join in with the shouting in capitals club UNIVERSAL CREDIT IS NOT WITH US YET IS IT?.........AND.........MANDATORY REVISION BEFORE APPEAL WILL BE ROLLED OUT LONG BEFORE UC GETS UP AND RUNNING.

 

What part of that don't you understand?

[fightingback99]

Sorry Speedfreak, admittedly I don't know much about the benefits system overall. but I dont' understand your point in relation to someone who is normally outside the benefit system and becimes ill longer term thus having to apply for ESA which would be CB based.

 

If they would only qualify for CB ESA and wouldn't normally be eligible for what you call other bags of pixie dust under UC, due to partner's income or pensions etc . Surely they would be worse off if they fail their ESA WCA assesment and instead of applying to receive receiving 'assessment ESA rate' while a reconsideration is done it's just completely stopped .

 

Not even sure I understand what I've asked here lol

[osdset]

Speedfreak is correct about all the different benefits coming together under UC, and mandatory revision before appeal (which I'm gonna abbreviate to MRBA) is sheduled to come into force at the same time as UC next October, the problem lies in the probability that the governments time scale for the roll out of UC is wildly optimistic, the general consensus is that they don't have a cat's chance in hell of having the IT system up and running properly by then, let alone anything else.

 

However HM Gov will not be moving the goalposts with the roll out of MRBA you can bet your bottom dollar it will come into force bang on time in Oct 2013, which is the point I was trying to make.

[speedfreek]

The MoJ aren't set up fpr this yet and it has already been announced that this will be for PIP only atm. Which was always just going to be treated the same as DLA anyway. So there's no real change here at all!

 

ESA really is the benefit reform elephant in the room. Whilst you lot all argue the toss over nothing you're missing a whole heap of nasty **** being sneaked in without even a you what or a second glance.

 

This change will not happen to ESA as it would be very toxic indeed. Even IDS isn't stupid enough to risk the question being asked; so ESA these disabled folks dying after failing the WCA test and before a reconsideration has been carried out by the DWP then? Not even worth £71 a week? What's all that about!

 

I could tell you all this again but in the style of the Smurfs? But what's the point!

[osdset]

The MoJ aren't set up fpr this yet and it has already been announced that this will be for PIP only atm. Which was always just going to be treated the same as DLA anyway. So there's no real change here at all!

 

ESA really is the benefit reform elephant in the room. Whilst you lot all argue the toss over nothing you're missing a whole heap of nasty **** being sneaked in without even a you what or a second glance.

 

This change will not happen to ESA as it would be very toxic indeed. Even IDS isn't stupid enough to risk the question being asked; so ESA these disabled folks dying after failing the WCA test and before a reconsideration has been carried out by the DWP then? Not even worth £71 a week? What's all that about!

 

I could tell you all this again but in the style of the Smurfs? But what's the point!

 

Very patronising, and frankly offensive, if you think that the members that post on here are a bunch of infantile morons then you are aligning yourself with the ideology of Cameron et al.

Just because this topic does not rate highly enough on your Richter scale of tragic consequences does not make the subject less valid.

[Slatted]

So, is there not going to be any eligibility criteria to claim base rate UC? Surely if it is to replace ESA and JSA there would still be the same criteria at the base of it and therefore there are still going to be those who fall between the two main criteria? I doubt things would be made any easier....just not how things are nowadays is it? Whatever it it called it is unlikely to improve things for anyone.....no matter what they would like "us" to believe.

[estellyn]

Under UC ESA will effectively become a additional premium for disability.

 

There will be no JSA or ESA anymore just a single Universal Credit paid at different amounts to different qualifying groups.

 

Now a mandatory reconsideration here is.... where exactly is the problem? There is non is there!

 

You will just not get the premium until you win will you?

 

Can you avoid the mandatory revision for ESA we have now that happens after you chuck in your appeal/GL24 to the DWP? No you can't can you!

 

All this seams designed to do is support the new appeals process and enforce the mandatory revision scheme we already are using by stopping something we do not have now! Which will be the direct by yourself handing in an appeal to the Tribunal Service.

 

Can you do that now? No you can't it gets passed to them by the DWP after a mandatory revision has been done!

 

As long as this isn't introduced before UC (and I doubt it will be for ESA) there really isn't any issues with this at all!

 

I'd be more concerned with the loss of SDP and exactly how appeals will be handled/accepted/rejected on/after submission. Maybe conditionality for those appealing what was formally ESA?

 

It is a problem. Doesn't matter what they call it ESA/JSA/UC - while having a mandatory revision, sick and disabled people will have to comply with the regimen of a jobseeker's agreement in order not to be sanctioned - you don't think that will lead to more deaths? So while these sick and disabled people - sanctioned because they can't comply with a jobseeker's agreement, maybe have difficulty even making it to signing days, have had legal aid withdrawn from them for benefit cases. They can't get an appt with the few CAB's and voluntary agencies still running, because they are inundated, so the poor claimant is left trying to negotiate their mandatory reconsideration, their challenges to their benefit sanctions, and the requirements of their JSAG, completely alone. And this is before mentioning those who couldn't get it together to request the reconsideration in time, who've now lost all right of appeal completely.

 

And even if you make it through mandatory revision, you still have no one to help with the appeals process.

 

At least those without heating can warm themselves by the heat of sick and disabled people setting light to themselves outside jobcentres.

[osdset]

So there is a light at the end of the tunnel and those that fail the ESA assessment can and do find alternatives notwithstanding health problems. She shouldn't be working, she knows that, I know that and her GP tells her regularly - she is putting her own life at risk every day - if she slipped at work for example. But doing what she is doing means that she does not have to worry about all of these new benefits and conditions that are attached to them.

 

And that is light at the end of the tunnel? Heaven help us.

[estellyn]

And that is light at the end of the tunnel? Heaven help us.

 

Totally agree.

[speedfreek]

It is a problem. Doesn't matter what they call it ESA/JSA/UC - while having a mandatory revision, sick and disabled people will have to comply with the regimen of a jobseeker's agreement in order not to be sanctioned -

 

Erm not according to what I'm reading as a revision is just that a revision!

 

When you apply for JSA you sign a JSAg When you apply for ESA you do not!

 

Under UC (which I keep repeating is what this mandatory revision is all about but you are still not listening) nothing has changed!

 

I'm going to put this as simply as I can; in UC we are talking about claimant conditionallity. Your conditions depends on how you apply and how you proceed through the UC system. Whilst a claim for UC under sickness is in doubt there is no conditionality (okay it has the same conditionality as the original application) :- that includes mandatory revision and appeals. Although if you do some reading IR WRAG under 6 month prognosis (things have been changed in the regs) chuck in appeal for Support Group and you do not get mandated onto the work program. So you'll be re-assessed before being mandated to the WP maybe who knows

 

I suggest you drop this dead duck of scaremongering as it's just that! A maybe if it's introduced early which I doubt that it will untill UC is fully implemented. FFS it's been announced that this will apply to PIP and nothing else. Do you get DLA when asking for an appeal or a revision? So nothing has changed!

 

By the way estellyn I agree which everything else in your post un-mandatory revision related.

 

I've left a little snippet of demystification up there which may help others on ESA faced with the WP. Do we all want to do this and play myth busters or do we want to scare the feckin bejesus out of already scared and extremely vulnerable people with complete and utter it might happen cods wallop (but we're not sure)?

 

Plus Osdset I've always wanted to call Honey Bee Smurfette for some reason

 

[estellyn]

Erm not according to what I'm reading as a revision is just that a revision!

 

When you apply for JSA you sign a JSAg When you apply for ESA you do not!

 

Under UC (which I keep repeating is what this mandatory revision is all about but you are still not listening) nothing has changed!

 

I'm going to put this as simply as I can; in UC we are talking about claimant conditionallity. Your conditions depends on how you apply and how you proceed through the UC system. Whilst a claim for UC under sickness is in doubt there is no conditionality (okay it has the same conditionality as the original application) :- that includes mandatory revision and appeals. Although if you do some reading IR WRAG under 6 month prognosis (things have been changed in the regs) chuck in appeal for Support Group and you do not get mandated onto the work program. So you'll be re-assessed before being mandated to the WP maybe who knows

 

I suggest you drop this dead duck of scaremongering as it's just that! A maybe if it's introduced early which I doubt that it will untill UC is fully implemented. FFS it's been announced that this will apply to PIP and nothing else. Do you get DLA when asking for an appeal or a revision? So nothing has changed!

 

By the way estellyn I agree which everything else in your post un-mandatory revision related.

 

I've left a little snippet of demystification up there which may help others on ESA faced with the WP. Do we all want to do this and play myth busters or do we want to scare the feckin bejesus out of already scared and extremely vulnerable people with complete and utter it might happen cods wallop (but we're not sure)?

 

Plus Osdset I've always wanted to call Honey Bee Smurfette for some reason

 

 

Can you provide a source for your info on conditionality under UC?

 

I was responding simply regarding the information in the government response following the consultation exercise, which made no mention of it only applying to PIP, it mentions ESA specifically in fact. If what you're saying is correct (and not saying it isn't) then why wasn't their response 'it only applies to PIP' or ' it will only apply under UC so payment during revision won't be an issue'. Its perplexing, so very interested in where you're getting your info from.

 

I do take some offense at being accused of scaremongering though. I state the reality as I understand it. I'm happy to retract anything that turns out to be incorrect. But I do not post with the aim of scaremongering.

[estellyn]

Also having trouble finding where it says that it will be brought in with UC - the things I've been reading say the intention is for it to apply from April 2013.

[worried33]

Grayling said himself live on TV this is going to apply to ESA. And not from oct 2013 he said from april 2013.

[osdset]

Grayling said himself live on TV this is going to apply to ESA. And not from oct 2013 he said from april 2013.

Steady up there worried33! you'll get accused of scaremongering.

[sadone]

The Department proposes to implement the changes to the appeals process from April 2013. The DWP may do this in stages, by benefit, as soon as IT capacity allows. Changes to child support will align with the new scheme in July 2013.

 

http://www.disabilityrightsuk.org/mandatoryrevision.htm

[RaeUK]

... You're a troll Della2, and trolls don't last too long on here.

 

Oddly enough, one more username in a recent list of users with incredibly similar skewed views. Whilst we await the next incarnation, I wonder how DIAL North West Kent are doing ...

[sadone]

Oddly enough, one more username in a recent list of users with incredibly similar skewed views. Whilst we await the next incarnation, I wonder how DIAL North West Kent are doing ...

 

 

This.....

[della2]

Go on then, Yes I am bored with this persona now.

 

It's been great, and lots and lots and lots of really nice people have spent time answering my posts. Errr waste of time really as they were all made up!!

 

Great that I had the RIP thread closed down

 

Be back soon, just hopping back over to MSE where I have a few going over there at the moment.

 

Yes very nice people on here, very patient and understanding.

 

However why has it taken so long for people to realise that they have been taken for a ride?

 

Bye Bye

 

xxxxxxx

 

Andy&Flo

[MARTIN3030]

Be back soon, just hopping back over to MSE where I have a few going over there at the moment.

 

We will be alerting their site team to your presence here,and also assisting them if they require to identify you.

[MARTIN3030]

Great that I had the RIP thread closed down

 

It will now be re-opened again (with no trace of your posts of course)

[RaeUK]

... However why has it taken so long for people to realise that they have been taken for a ride? ...

 

It didn't, several people recognised you immediately. It's just that they're ...

 

... very nice people on here, very patient and understanding.

[estellyn]

Some people get their jollies in the oddest ways....

[antone]

Some people get their jollies in the oddest ways....

 

Yes, indeed. This poster seems to enjoy concocting weird benefit scenarios and then asking for advice about them. It's rather hard to spot, because most sane people wouldn't even consider this as a pleasurable activity, so regular posters are not on their guard. I mean, for myself personally, if I had the choice of several leisure activities, say:

 

 

• Spend time with my wife
  
• Drink some beers
  
• Watch football
  
• Go for a walk
  
• Mess about with electronics and computer programming
  
• Intentionally waste the time of well-meaning strangers online, making up increasingly complex benefit scenarios involving strange situations and asking for advice, and then arguing ineptly with the responses I get
  

then I don't think the last option would be the first thing I chose. I suppose it takes all sorts, but certain varieties of "all sorts" should leave post haste, along with the horse they rode in on.

[RaeUK]

The obvious benefit of the internet - anonymity - has the flip side of allowing people with certain problem character traits to suddenly fulfill their desires. In this poster's case it seems to be an otherwise unfulfilled need to be the centre of attention presumably fed by low self-esteem. Hat's off, though, they did a good job. He/she displayed quite a good amount of patience building up a rapport before the posts, inevitably, became more 'me,me,me' at an increasing pace.

But that's also how you'll always identify them. The modus operandi can't change that much. The build up might get longer but the end result will always be an orgy of 'me!'. It's the internet version of grabbing the microphone, their Andy Warhol moment.

You can't feel annoyed at the likes of della2. Only pity that their lives are so small and lacking that the only way they can feel any resemblance to being worthy is by disrupting otherwise sane and useful sites.

The real irony, however, is that if they put the same energy into learning and then helping others their feelings of worthlessness would evaporate and they would have no need to act as they currently do.