engine failed within 24 hours.

[mat001]

Hello,

 

i bought a car on 21st august from Honda garage in Norwich. i drove from there to scotland and covered 600 miles. in the morning i started the car and engine was making knocking noises. car went to local honda dealer and told me that the engine has failed. Honda uk investigated by stripping the engine and came to the conclusion that due to lack of oil the engine had failed. The car was taken to the selling dealer by honda uk. they have taken liability. Now my concern is that they might fix the existing engine but personally would like a new engine as it may comprise reliability in the future. Now i was wondering what rights i have to return the car and get a refund?

 

thanks

[mat001]

anyone?

[Conniff]

Sorry about the slow reply asma91.

 

Unless the car is new, you wouldn't be entitled to a new engine, that would be betterment. You would be entitled to a used engine, but you never know how they have been treated and can't be sure the mileage is the same as that written in correcting fluid on it.

 

Depending on what they intend to do and what the actual problem is, if it's the crankshaft and bearing shells that are the problem, then a regrind and a new set of shells would be a much better bet.

 

Do you want to go into more detail ?

[heliosuk]

If it's gone the Honda UK then it will have a new engine Conniff. They won't re-build it. Thing is, it is highly unusual for any manufactuer to take a car back unless it is still within the manufatuers warranty

 

Ageand mileage would help here as to what is going on.

[mat001]

the car is a honda s2000 and milage is 65000.

Well guys got an update from Holden Honda. They said they are not going to fix it as it should be done under Guarantee because they believe that an over speed has caused the engine to fail.

 

Well heres the story from the start...

 

Bought the car from Holden Honda n Norwich and drove 500-600 miles back home. got home parked up and everything was fine till in the morning when i tried starting the car. as soon as i started the car it was a loud knock and car never started. tried starting it again and started up fine but the engine was knocking slightly but got worse as i kept the car on. thats when i called the selling dealer explaining the situation to them. They were fine at the time and gave me the number to call AA to get it recovered to my nearest dealer which is Honda in Kirkcaldy. When the AA guy arrived the first thing he done was check the oil and oil was below minimum line and thats when he said that the engine knocking because of lack of oil but need investigated further and got a flat bed to recover the car to Honda in Kirkcaldy. This was the report i got off AA when the first cam out to check the car.

AA Report

 

Once the car was at Honda in Kirkcaldy. They discovered that there was an over speed recorded on the ECU. The recorded speed was 112mph at 9225 rpm. I drove 500 miles and i honestly can not remember or recall any moment where i have drove the car in manner of way that i would cause an over speed. I tried to get more information like what milage did the ECU record the over speed condition as that could have been on ECU before i bought the car and maybe that never caused the engine to fail. so then Kirkcaldy Honda told me to deal with selling dealer as extended warranty will not cover that as there is an over speed recorded on the ECU.

 

Here is the Over speed Print out

Over speed print out

 

I tried calling Holden Honda several times and they would always say that they going to call me back but never did and thats when i manage to find out a contact number for Phil Dix (customer Relation HUK) his response was that he will get the car taken to Glasgow Honda and investigate further. Once the car arrived at Glasgow Honda they then stripped the engine and then they heard back from Honda that they have rejected the warranty claim. the conclusion Honda Glasgow came to was that the car was driven low on oil and there is no mechanical failure of any of the major components. the number 4 cylinder con rod shells have been damaged, the crankshaft and cylinder head has also suffer some damage. HUK believe this has been cause because the car was driven low on oil.

 

 

So on the basis of the over speed print out Holden Honda have rejected to fix the car at this time.

 

i have been to seen a solicitor and he has wrote a letter to Holden Honda requesting refund.

 

will update as they follow.

 

 

Also forgot to mention

 

The General Manager at Holden Honda gave me three option

1. to try and claim off honda warranty again ( the warranty have made the decision to reject the claim which i have been told by RIchard who was dealing with the case on behalf of Phil Dix)

 

2. Claim of my own motor insurance

 

3. pay for repair cost

[Yukiko]

Can I just say, I'm not completely tech'd up on this... But if an engine "Fails", it can cause all sorts of random readings.

 

Fifth Gear purposely ran a Proton Wira out of oil and drove it for a few miles and the last thing it did before seizing up was send the rev counter off the chart. I'd say something similar could have happened here if something has become unlubricated, it could have caused the errattic reading on the ECU of the engine speed.

 

Search "Fifth Gear Oil" on youtube to see the original footage. 9225RPM at 113mph would have to include you removing the rev limiter and taking up to that speed in third gear or something like that...?

[Conniff]

Phone calls are a waste of time, you should only communicate by letter. I suggest you write to them by recorded delivery and give them 7 days after receipt to respond.

[mat001]

i looked at that video. quite interesting to find that the rev goes mad.

 

 

Also going to start communicating through letters with the selling dealer

 

thanks

[scaniaman]

Honda Kirkcalday is owned by Arnold Clark-----enough said!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

[heliosuk]

This is quite an interesting case for me.

 

On a modern engine driven low on oil the revs will increase as the engine tries to compensate for the increased load placed on it, i.e. as it starts to seize it increases in speed to prevent it from stalling.

 

No.4 conrod will stretch first as the seizure would probably have occured on the journal furthest away from the oil pump feed. This stretching would cause damage to the head as the clearances now are extremely fine between the top of the piston and the valves. The head is probably recoverable but the bottom end will be a write off.

 

Honda UK's response could be a double edge sword though.

 

If Holden can prove that the oil level was correct then HUK would have to explain why it burnt a sump of oil in 500 miles on an engine with 65,000 miles on it. Given that all data such as this is fed back to Japan or European head quarters they will have a vast amount to analyse the risk of fail.

 

The reality is that Holden have dropped a clanger and probably let the car go with insufficient oil in it. Again HUK could argue and probably prove this was the case from data.

 

At the end of the day, even with a new car, your problem is with the sellar of the car. As the car has done 65K with no issues as such in it's previous life (as HUK will know about anything) the chances of it being a manufacturing defect are virtually nill. Therefore in all probability it was handed over to you with insufficient oil.

 

Reject the car formally and tell them to go and get it. They will have to either do this or authorise Honda Glasgow to repair. You should trust HUK as they will be useful in sorting this out and can force the issue with Holden.

[mat001]

thanks for all your help.

 

When i was speaking to Richard from the customer relation team. He was saying that after HUK investigation they came to the conclusion that the engine has failed due to lack of oil and they are happy to provide all the information needed. Also the car was sold as Honda approved so how would this 30 day used car exchange policy?

 

thanks

[scaniaman]

This may be a silly question but did the OP check engine oil and water levels before setting out for Scotland.?

We always recommended that on uplifting a vehicle from a sales or service outfit, the driver should carry out basic checks before driving off in vehicle---it was a bad experience that made us start these checks.

Had this been a commercial vehicle, the selling agent and manufacturer would have stated that it's the drivers responsibility to check levels before starting engine.

Edited October 12, 2012 by scaniaman
dippit

[Yukiko]

thanks for all your help.

 

When i was speaking to Richard from the customer relation team. He was saying that after HUK investigation they came to the conclusion that the engine has failed due to lack of oil and they are happy to provide all the information needed. Also the car was sold as Honda approved so how would this 30 day used car exchange policy?

 

thanks

 

My argument would be that if the vehicle was sold as "Fit for purpose", it would have protective fluids in it with the capability of lasting out the first few days of ownership.

 

If I've ever sold a shed (Adequately described to the purchaser), I've always checked for coolant, oil and brake fluid, so I know they've got a good chance of getting it home with no issues.

 

If they'd sold it to you with no coolant in, which may not have been apparant until it'd seized up, I'm sure they'd be taking a different stance.

 

Engine oil is always a funny bugger of a subject, but if it was sold as fit for purpose and their checks had been conducted properly, there'd have been no oil leaks or oil burn when it was inspected. Ergo, it shouldn't have lost any.

 

Just as another note, the oil consumption in my 89 Cavalier (From the manual) is apparently 0.005ltr per 1000 miles. This was when the car was new. Now, I put a pint or so in a month (1500 miles a month) which after 23 years, I don't think is excessive. They should provide a reason why it used 1000 times more oil than it should have done.

[heliosuk]

HUK is spot on with the stance they are taking. As previously pointed out the OP should be asking for assistance from them in holding Holden Honda Norwich to account which they can do in this case.

 

If the car is subject to an official used car sale then the oil level should have been correct. If Holden say it was then how do HUK explain the use of a sump full of oil in 500 miles?

 

If I was OP then I'd officially reject against Holden and ask HUK to support with either finding another car or fitting a full new engine and charging Holden.

[mat001]

i bought the car as a Honda Approved Car so how would 30 day exchange policy if you car breaks down within 1000 miles or 30 days.

[heliosuk]

You need to read the T &C's of the offer but as you are now past the 30 days it's probably irrelevant anyway. You need to negotiate a good deal with HUK and get them to put the pressure on Holden.

[mat001]

i understand its past 30 days now but the car was broken down within 24 hours and was taken to a honda garage straight after and the reason why its taken this long because of honda uk trying to rectify the problem and investigate what has caused this so since the problem can not be rectified so i should be able to take advantage of this offer?

 

thanks