PCN - Entering and stopping in a box junction

[lostforwords]

Hello everyone, I am afraid I need your help again.

I have just received, fresh from the mail, a PCN with the specification above, included a picture from the road side camera.

As you can't see the pictures (which I am glad to attach if you request them) I must explain that there was a lot of traffic and a very long queue, and the car in front of me suddenly stopped, just before getting to the other side of the junction. I stopped as soon as I realised that the traffic in front of me wouldn't have moved on, but my front wheels (3/4 of them to be precise), where already in the box junction. Once the traffic moved, I reached the other side of the junction safely without creating any other "problem". Of course, if I had an aerial view of the road (the one that the enforcement officer had observing in real time the images from the road side camera) I could predict that, given an almost solid traffic ahead, I would have ended up in a difficult position in the queue line, but since I was sitting inside the car, I could not have this "wise insight" and I stopped almost immediately (in fact from the picture you can see that the box junction lines have just started). Any chance to explain this to whoever is in charge? I can attach a copy of the fine with the pictures.

As always, thank you very much for taking time to read and answer to my thread.

[sailor sam]

The advice is not to enter the box until your exit road is clear (unless you are turning right and are prevented to do so by on-coming traffic). However, the offence is only complete if (after entering the box) you have to stop. So in a nut shell, if you follow the vehicle in front of you into the box without leaving sufficient room to be able to clear the box if he stops, then you increase the chances of committing the offence dramatically. From your account, the argument will be that if there was a 'long queue' of traffic, then you should not of entered the box until the vehicle in front had left enough room for you to clear it.

 

Have you asked to see the CCTV footage? Also, are you sure the box is correctly marked? Have a look here;

 

http://www.ticketfighter.co.uk/yellow.htm

 

Please Note

 

The advice I offer will be based on the information given by the person needing it. All my advice is based on my experiences and knowledge gained in working in the motor and passenger transport industries in various capacities. Although my advice will always be sincere, it should be used as guidence only.

 

I would always urge to seek face to face professional advice for clarification prior to taking any action.

 

Please click my reputation 'star' button at the bottom of my profile window on the left if you found my advice useful.

[lostforwords]

Dear Sailor Sam, the fact is that when I entered the box junction the traffic was moving, not fast but enough. Between me and the car in front of me there was the whole box junction, as I was at the very beginning of it (next to me there was still the footpath) and the other car was almost out of it. So the road was sort of "clear". I saw your link which I found extremely interesting but can't anything similar to my situation. Do you want me to attach the PCN with the pics? Thank you

[lenn]

I would forget about the photos. In my opinion you have committed the offence. However unless there is CCTV footage which shows you stationary then there is no evidence.

 

If you are convinced you are not guilty then you should appeal. "Sort of clear" will not do

 

Ask for the CCTV evidence first though.

[lostforwords]

I think I understand but can you explain it better? In my PCN is stated that " alleged contravention was noted by an enforcement officer who was observing real time pictures from a road side camera at the time stated". Doesn't this mean that it was recorded by a CCTV? What else could this has been? I assumed it was a CCTV....Thank you

[lostforwords]

I have written to the Brent Council asking for the CCTV footage. They replied with a link where the video should be supposedly be posted, but the video doesn't open. I have tried writing them emails asking them to resend the image but with no lck. Can you please advise what should be done next? Any other email I tried sending in didn't work. On top it's clear from the 2 still pictures I received that only 5 seconds passed between my car entering and safely getting to the other side of the box junction. Thank you very much.

[lostforwords]

Hello is anyone able to me help me with this please? I can't open their link. Shall I go ahead regardless the link or not? Only 5 secs passed between the first picture of me entering the junction and me exiting it. Thanks

[Kiki1]

The advice is not to enter the box until your exit road is clear (unless you are turning right and are prevented to do so by on-coming traffic). However, the offence is only complete if (after entering the box) you have to stop.

 

For the advice based on signalled roundabouts, I would agree with you (except the turn right rule) but it's slightly different for standard box junctions

 

From Highway Code 174

 

You MUST NOT enter the box until your exit road or lane is clear. However, you may enter the box and wait when you want to turn right, and are only stopped from doing so by oncoming traffic, or by other vehicles waiting to turn right. At signalled roundabouts you MUST NOT enter the box unless you can cross over it completely without stopping

[jimmy2times]

I have written to the Brent Council asking for the CCTV footage. They replied with a link where the video should be supposedly be posted, but the video doesn't open. I have tried writing them emails asking them to resend the image but with no lck. Can you please advise what should be done next? Any other email I tried sending in didn't work. On top it's clear from the 2 still pictures I received that only 5 seconds passed between my car entering and safely getting to the other side of the box junction. Thank you very much.

 

If you appeal you will b given the DVD of the incident. I have received 2 similar in the past, appeal them both and lost, in both cases the boxed junction was badly painted and marked, the adjudicator seem to not care too much of my argument. Interesting following my failed appeal the council repainted them!!

[sailor sam]

The advice is not to enter the box until your exit road is clear (unless you are turning right and are prevented to do so by on-coming traffic). However, the offence is only complete if (after entering the box) you have to stop.

 

For the advice based on signalled roundabouts, I would agree with you (except the turn right rule) but it's slightly different for standard box junctions

 

From Highway Code 174

 

You MUST NOT enter the box until your exit road or lane is clear. However, you may enter the box and wait when you want to turn right, and are only stopped from doing so by oncoming traffic, or by other vehicles waiting to turn right. At signalled roundabouts you MUST NOT enter the box unless you can cross over it completely without stopping

 

Not sure what 'different for standard box junctions' you are referring to in respect of my previous post.

 

Please Note

 

The advice I offer will be based on the information given by the person needing it. All my advice is based on my experiences and knowledge gained in working in the motor and passenger transport industries in various capacities. Although my advice will always be sincere, it should be used as guidence only.

 

I would always urge to seek face to face professional advice for clarification prior to taking any action.

 

Please click my reputation 'star' button at the bottom of my profile window on the left if you found my advice useful.

[adamr0we]

Hello is anyone able to me help me with this please? I can't open their link. Shall I go ahead regardless the link or not? Only 5 secs passed between the first picture of me entering the junction and me exiting it. Thanks

 

I think you would need to view the actual footage, what browser are you using? The main question would be, does the footage show your car coming to a complete stop with any part of it in the box junction? If you braked and slowed but continued to crawl forwards, that would be ok, but if at any point you stopped moving forward in the box then you would be seen to have committed the offence. The timer on any CCTV footage would hopefully show this.

[Kiki1]

 

Not sure what 'different for standard box junctions' you are referring to in respect of my previous post.

 

 

The advice mentions both exit roads AND lanes. If the lane you are taking when you enter the box junction is clear, and the obstruction crops up before exiting then you have a potential right to appeal. From my experience the camera used by the local authority takes images from above the junction but does not have the same viewing angle as the driver at the head of the box. It is worth going to the junction following a PCN to take your own photographs from a drivers perspective. Same time, same traffic conditions and similar visibilty will help if an adjudicator is to have ALL the facts in front of him.

 

For example

 

http://www.patasregistersofappeals.org.uk/statreg/case.aspx?caseref=2100446400

[gmbunn]

Having worked for the 'darkside' for a long time I can tell you this offence is what's known as 'absolute' - meaning basically that if you did it, it doesn't matter why, it was still an offence you committed. There's some good advice on earlier posts about the council/road safety partnership needing solid evidence, so that's a route you could explore properly, but one thing I would stress is that contrary to most people's impression, the courts are impartial until evidence is presented to them. They're there just as much for you to put your side of it across as they are to hear the prosecutions. I know it's daunting by nature but if you really feel you had no way of avoiding the situation, explaining that to magistrates may go your way.

[crem]

Having worked for the 'darkside' for a long time I can tell you this offence is what's known as 'absolute' - meaning basically that if you did it, it doesn't matter why, it was still an offence you committed.

 

 

I have never heard of this offence being referred to as an "absolute" and in my opinion to use such a reference is "absolutely" wrong. The fact that you state you have worked for the darkside is unsurprising as councils frequently seem to think a YBJ offence is absolute which is why they are wrong so often.

[gmbunn]

I have never heard of this offence being referred to as an "absolute" and in my opinion to use such a reference is "absolutely" wrong. The fact that you state you have worked for the darkside is unsurprising as councils frequently seem to think a YBJ offence is absolute which is why they are wrong so often.

 

thanks for the input crem but I can assure you that you're mistaken here. The OP's issue is certainly an 'absolute' offence - off the top of my head I believe the OP will have committed the offence under reg 29 - traffic signs regs and directions. Though I may be wrong as there are a few alternatives that could be used depending on the specifics of the box junction. The offence is absloute as it's automatically complete when 1) The exit was not clear when you entered the yellow box junction. 2) You entered the yellow box junction and stopped behind a stationary vehicle. 3) Part of your vehicle is inside the yellow box junction and your vehicle is stationary. The exceptions are obviously in place for stopping to turn right, etc etc. - The council will (officially) have no discretion when it comes to absolute offences and I'm sure if the OP writes to them, this is exactly the reply he'll receive.

 

I actually empathise with this situation, hence mentioning the option of arguing his case at court if he pleases. Oh and by the way, I dont work for the council and never have, but nice guess. 'Darkside' was a tongue-in-cheek reference of course, but traffic offences were very common things to deal with in my role...

[jimmy2times]

thanks for the input crem but I can assure you that you're mistaken here. The OP's issue is certainly an 'absolute' offence - off the top of my head I believe the OP will have committed the offence under reg 29 - traffic signs regs and directions. Though I may be wrong as there are a few alternatives that could be used depending on the specifics of the box junction. The offence is absloute as it's automatically complete when 1) The exit was not clear when you entered the yellow box junction. 2) You entered the yellow box junction and stopped behind a stationary vehicle. 3) Part of your vehicle is inside the yellow box junction and your vehicle is stationary. The exceptions are obviously in place for stopping to turn right, etc etc. - The council will (officially) have no discretion when it comes to absolute offences and I'm sure if the OP writes to them, this is exactly the reply he'll receive.

 

I actually empathise with this situation, hence mentioning the option of arguing his case at court if he pleases. Oh and by the way, I dont work for the council and never have, but nice guess. 'Darkside' was a tongue-in-cheek reference of course, but traffic offences were very common things to deal with in my role...

 

The easy get out of a £60 if you are in the unfortuante situation where you are stuck in the box junction is to flick on your right indicator. How will the council dispute you were not intending to turn right?, thus no offence was comitted.

[gmbunn]

The easy get out of a £60 if you are in the unfortuante situation where you are stuck in the box junction is to flick on your right indicator. How will the council dispute you were not intending to turn right?, thus no offence was comitted.

 

Haha, I guess so long as there's a right turn to take, you have a point!

[green_and_mean]

The easy get out of a £60 if you are in the unfortuante situation where you are stuck in the box junction is to flick on your right indicator. How will the council dispute you were not intending to turn right?, thus no offence was comitted.

 

Turning right is not an exemption though is it!!