NatWest OD facility letters

[Guest]

do the I/E form for your eyes only for now, so you can see what overall position your in. then just pay what you can reasonably afford, ensuring interest frozen.?

[pj2017]

CitizenB, they have issued a default notice - saying they intend to default me. Do they issue another letter when it has been defaulted? They gave me till the 14th of this month to agree a payment plan or I would be defaulted.

 

As for facility letters - they have no account opening details or contract on file. Thye told me I "must have" agreed to the terms and conditions in operation at the time, T&C that say the bank can unilaterally vary the T&Cs. I've told them I wanted to close the account and just pay off the outstanding balance without interest - and that original T&C did not say the account would be uncloseable without a nil balance... But if they default me, freeze interest and accept a payment plan, it would amount to the same thing.

[Guest]

oh ok, there is poss an offer of a payment plan without default!? enquire about this, as that might be with interest frozen. could then avoid a default?

[pj2017]

Ford, I emailed Alison Acton in the RBS Group Executive Office the other day, asking her to remove the £36 unauthorised overdraft charge (she agreed a long time ago that accounts with the Collections department for more than 31 days are not subject to such charges, so she has been regularly refunding the charges for me), and telling her I got the default notice, but I am willing to reach a payment plan and am especially interested in an agreement with frozen interest. She hasn't replied yet, but she must have many such emails.

 

I believe she does what she can within the guidelines of the bank - she may not be allowed to set precedents by giving lenient treatment to people, but she did give goodwill payments after the bank was late in giving me my SAR details, and she has refunded nearly £500 in charges, and she probably is doing the maximum she is allowed to do.

[Guest]

ok, so see what comes back then re this payment plan offer with frozen interest. there's always poss 'discretion' when it goes higher up. if they accept, happy days.

[pj2017]

I was phoned by NatWest today. One of those cheery voices who called me by my first name, despite the fact I don't know her and she is probably half my age.

 

I have exceeded the bank's requirement to act by September 14th to avoid default, although she told me the default will be by the end of the month and hasn't happened yet. She was phoning to ask me to agree to a payment plan to avoid default. I owe £3300 and she said the maximum they would accept was to spread the repayments over 18 months, and thus I would have to pay £183 a month (up from the £1 a month I've been giving them). This is a large % of my monthly earnings and I couldn't possibly agree to such a thing. It seems there was nothing in it for me at all to agree to such a thing - which I wouldn't be able to pay anyway.

 

She then asked me to spread the payments over a longer period, such as 3 years - but said this would be a loan, and interest would be charge on the loan!!! I pointed out that I had phoned up a couple of years ago when I was earning more asking for a loan to pay off the overdraft, and turned down because of my credit rating! Suddenly, before default, they seem willing to turn it into a loan, as long as they can add more loan fees on top!

 

This business of checking your credit rating before turning an overdraft into a loan is also nonsense: it is not new borrowing, as you have had the full amount, and so it is entirely fatuous to check your credit rating and then tell you they can't "lend" you the amount to pay off your overdraft (i.e. lend you not a penny more, but turn your overdraft into a loan with a lower rate of interest). This time they were willing to lend me the money to pay it off - but over 3 years, she calculated it would be £122 a month - which means they were adding a further £1000 in fees at such a late date.

 

These people never miss a trick. Would I like to enter into an agreement to pay multiples of my spare money a month into a loan product that will cause me to pay an additional £1000 on top? Er... that'll be a no. I told them, if this was their attitude, I would rather go to court and let the magistrate decide how much I shoudl pay - and I would argue strongly that £1 a month is what I should pay - and not £100+ and definitely no interest. What is up with these banks?

 

I have £500 in my account, and am getting harassing letters from HMRC over my payment on account due in July for £500 which remains outstanding - so there is no way I could have squeezed out £183 or £122 for NatWest!

 

She told me now that the overdraft agreement has been withdrawn there will definitely be no further charges or interest applied. The last interest added was in June, and there will be no more, but she couldn't explain why £36 in charges have been added this month, and said no one in the Collection department knew how to remove those charges, although she offered her best wishes with my attempt to get them refunded through the RBS Group Executive Office.

 

She assured me the account will be handled by in-house credit managers, and not farmed out to Robinson Way, and that after default, I will still get a chance to set out my income and offer a reasonable amount (much less than the £122 they were seeking).

 

Look, they lent to someone self-employed with declining income who is now down to 4 or 5 hours' work a week - why don't these guys just write the debt off? They took a risk in lending to a self-employed person, and so need to face up to the implications of operating a business that is dependent on risk.

 

I am sick of all this, but at this point, I am waiting to negotiate after default, as she made clear £183 was the minimum payment I had to pay to get an interest-free loan to pay off the debt, and £20 a month or thereabouts was nothing she was interested in.

[Guest]

you're right, they don't 'miss a trick'. interest stopped, but they'll do a loan and then charge further interest! using the threat of a 6 year default! (it prob won't be too long before its 3 years in line with the rest of europe). at least they ended up offering one interest free (which they should do anyway re financial diffs and not increasing debt)! albeit with unrealistic payments.

 

so, you are going to take the default? at least you can then pay a reasonable amount with no interest.

 

re self employment, have you considered a small earnings exemption certificate re NI?

Edited September 19, 2013 by Ford

[pj2017]

Yes, I'm taking the default. I'm paying NI and so not earning little enough for a small earnings certificate, but it'll be touch and go whether I get above the tax threshold this year. Honestly, with mortgage, council tax, gas, electricity, house insurance (buildings and contests), water, sewage, Internet connection (needed for work), minimal amounts on clothes, and food, and of course NI payments - and the fact I have a Halifax debt too to service - they won't be getting any £183 out of me. What a shame she wouldn't just take £20 from me a month and not default me - they will achieve nothing by this - as I have already been defaulted on one loan, and am not applying for credit.

[pj2017]

I have to say that the council tax - not linked to ability to pay - is the think that tips many people's finances over the edge. The sooner it is replaced by a local income tax, the better, particularly as I am around the tax threshold anyway, and might not pay anything if they moved council tax onto income tax.

[Guest]

its not in 'their' nature to be amenable, despite the oft guides etc requiring them to be so!

 

re water rates, double check whether your gutter drainpipes flow onto the public/surface drain. if not, maybe entitled to a small discount.

 

re c'tax. see, Thatchers idea was right!

[pj2017]

Actually, I see the council tax as not too different to the poll tax. I would prefer it to be replaced by a land value tax.

[Guest]

her idea was basically right, as you highlighted, ie according to means and per resident person (given what the majority of the c'tax is for). but, it was the system of implementation that was flawed. imo i digress

Edited September 18, 2013 by Ford

[pj2017]

I am a couple of weeks into October now - when NatWest said they'd default me at the end of September. I haven't heard anything from them. But my account has been deleted - when I login to NatWest I can only see an old credit card (one with a nil balance and nil available to spend) but the old current account has gone. So I can't pay any more money into that account. I was paying £1 a month by standing order - but I now see my Citibank account won't let me change the amount, as the payee (ie my NatWest account) doesn't exist... I looked on Noddle - and there is no information relating to this NatWest account on there - the account was opened in 1990, and that may be why it's not there. I suppose NatWest will let me know how to pay from now on...

[AndyOrch]

They will have transferred it to their router accounts which are controlled by CMS In Telford...no doubt they will contact you for your proposals.

 

Regards

 

Andy

[pj2017]

Andyorch, I see someone on CAG in 2008 called P Walton was saying there was something strange about the router accounts, but I can't work out after extensive searching what the problem is. Is it that they refuse to provide updates of the account balances? Or do they fiddle with the router accounts in unknown ways and mysteriously increase the sums owed? Is there anything I can find out about how these differ from other accounts?

[AndyOrch]

Yes Paul knows all about the router accounts...new account numbers ...no statements ...no accounting for any payments made since default and transfer.

 

To be honest pj2 once your account enters this black hole you would be wise to stop any payment arrangement and just wait for them to litigate.

 

Regards

 

Andy

[pj2017]

Thanks - they haven't contacted me yet, so I'll see what they say first.

[Guest]

others also do these 'router a/cs', eg loyds. have repeatedly asked them for an explanation about it but they have conveniently avoided commenting on it!

 

yours will prob go out on the dca round now

Edited October 16, 2013 by Ford

[pj2017]

I'm thinking - after reading what happened to Paul Walton at http://www.theguardian.com/money/2008/feb/02/banks.consumeraffairs, it seems the router accounts are set up to massively increase the debts - and many debtors will simply not understand what is happening and carry on paying forever.

 

But if challenged on it - the banks will just say it is an error.

 

My feeling is that these accounts were not set up by Goodwin to massively inflate debts being recovered, but were set up, fraudulently, to misrepresent bad debts to the regulator as loan accounts being serviced that are actually positive assets on bank balance sheets. This is all about misrepresenting the health of the bank to regulators - but people whose debts are being pursued in this way who don't keep on top of things may unwittingly find their debts spiralling out of any connection with the original debt due to the way the accounts are set up???

[Guest]

so called 'creative' accounting? ie as you say misleading, also keeping a default account 'live' for the dca's to have their slice?

[pj2017]

Well, if I am passed to CMS in Telford, I will ask for exact information on whether it is a router account, what the interest rates are, whether it is a capital and interest variable loan account, when I authorised it being set up etc, and I will contact Alison Acton in the RBS group executive office once again to try to elicit a clear account of what is happening.

[Guest]

have you previously done a sar on this?

[pj2017]

Yes, I did an SAR and got the info back - but that was a year or two ago, and now my account has been closed if they hand it over to CMS I might need a new SAR.

[Guest]

yeah, another sar just now, after default, might show their router a/c?

Edited October 16, 2013 by Ford

[paulwlton]

I'm thinking - after reading what happened to Paul Walton at http://www.theguardian.com/money/2008/feb/02/banks.consumeraffairs, it seems the router accounts are set up to massively increase the debts - and many debtors will simply not understand what is happening and carry on paying forever.

 

But if challenged on it - the banks will just say it is an error.

 

My feeling is that these accounts were not set up by Goodwin to massively inflate debts being recovered, but were set up, fraudulently, to misrepresent bad debts to the regulator as loan accounts being serviced that are actually positive assets on bank balance sheets. This is all about misrepresenting the health of the bank to regulators - but people whose debts are being pursued in this way who don't keep on top of things may unwittingly find their debts spiralling out of any connection with the original debt due to the way the accounts are set up???

 

http://www.theguardian.com/money/2009/jul/25/royal-bank-loan-debt