NatWest OD facility letters

[Guest]

what you could do also is a cca request? and see what they come back with. an o/d is running account credit. they'll prob claim exemption but could say well if claiming exemp where are the o/d facility letter and exemp letter to prove? also, there is the statement of account etc that s/b complied with re cca request even if exemption.

did you see the lending code/bcobs re 'dormant' accounts?

Edited December 4, 2012 by Ford

[jamesbond]

the problem is i doubt very very much that they would take it to court. They are fully aware that they are on sticky ground as they have no documentation.

if you fail to maintain the facility they will with draw it , default you and then let the hounds loose on you until you give in and pay.

the fact they hold no documentation is of no concern to them.

As for them being reasonable, banks dont do reasonable ! they make money by stuffing you ! the thought of freezing interest is an absolute no no.

what the law says and what the bank believe are two different things. They are pretty sure you wont take them to court, as you say yourself " there is nothing to contest" , so what are you trying to acheive?

You are aware they hold no paperwork but will it change anything? i doubt it will .

Its either pay up or we will destroy your credit files and make your life hell, unless you have loads of cash and a good brief to take them to court and try your luck putting them to proof.

[pj2017]

the problem is i doubt very very much that they would take it to court. They are fully aware that they are on sticky ground as they have no documentation.

if you fail to maintain the facility they will with draw it , default you and then let the hounds loose on you until you give in and pay.

the fact they hold no documentation is of no concern to them.

As for them being reasonable, banks dont do reasonable ! they make money by stuffing you ! the thought of freezing interest is an absolute no no.

what the law says and what the bank believe are two different things. They are pretty sure you wont take them to court, as you say yourself " there is nothing to contest" , so what are you trying to acheive?

You are aware they hold no paperwork but will it change anything? i doubt it will .

Its either pay up or we will destroy your credit files and make your life hell, unless you have loads of cash and a good brief to take them to court and try your luck putting them to proof.

 

Well, I read somewhere on CAG that you need to be careful assuming you can "put them to proof" in court, because the way the law works the person making statements in court is the one who has to prove them. If I sued NatWest, I am the one who would be put to strict proof - and I don't have account opening documentation either. So best to wait for them to sue me, and then, I will be careful not to make unsupportable statements in court, waiting for them to make claims over the nature of the contract between us (if any), giving me the opportunity to put them to strict proof. I can't make statements in court that I can't support - which is what suing them would require - but neither can they - which is why they may not go to court.

 

I own my house, albeit with a mortgage - one of the cheapest houses in the country - nothing grand - and I was in 6 months of arrears at one point - so credit file is already ruined and my credit rating is on the lowest level. So at this point in time, the credit file is my last concern. Mortgage is less than £60 a week - which I am managing at present despite the fact my work has gone down to about 1 day a week, and I go to the gym the other 4 days - so unless I get more clients cancelling I can stay where I am and won't need to be concerned about the credit file. The problem comes if I am once again unable to pay the mortgage, have to go on the JSA, go into arrears again, get repossessed, and then find that landlords won't rent to me on housing benefit due to my credit file. As long as I can pay my admittedly small mortgage, I can ignore the credit file.

[jamesbond]

if you dont make arrangements with credit management they will default you and then try to recover the outstanding debt via door knockers..

 

if you are not worried about the collecters on the phone etc harrasing you then let them knock, but you will receive a default and a lots of harrassment.

 

if they try and enforce the debt in court, stand your ground and then put them to proof and try your luck that way.

 

it appears that no direction looks pretty from this side, but plenty have done it before and come out the other side including me with trashed credit files, luckily mine have less than a year to run but still a pain in the ass none the less.

 

I would pay the mortgage and put it on the back burner and hope things get better work wise personally and let them sing for it

[pj2017]

Well, if it's a choice between paying the mortgage and servicing an old debt - I'm afraid the choice is simple. I'll pay the mortgage and won't live on a park bench as a result.

 

Surely they must realise few people engage them in long series of letters on the legal obligation to be fair to customers unless they are really desperate for a bit of relaxation of the financial pressure on them. I don't do this for kicks.

[pj2017]

One good thing from the SAR - I see they don't have my current mobile phone number. Which makes life easier.

 

In fact, I would never give any bank or similar company my mobile number! Mobiles are for friends and family only.

[jamesbond]

mobiles are no problem there easy to block numbers on anyway..its landline thats a pain in the ass and the only way out of that is change the number, or answer phone machine ..

.

i have engaged them with 86 letters in total and still got no where, and i have no outstanding debt ..they are tosse**....executive complaints dept my ass !! its just another muppet saying you are wrong and we are right ...do something about it if you can...we dont really care.....

 

they are horrible people with no morals and i defy any one to tell me different....he who pays the piper calls the tune sadly and when some people have to kiss ass to keep a job they will..

 

keep complaining to the ico and commisioners and bang them in court when you are on a pretty surefire thing...thats my only advice, keep on arguing the point via email or letter and dont give up..its the only thing that gets to them as they have more work to do.

Edited December 4, 2012 by jamesbond

[Guest]

86 letters, and no outstanding debt! how come?

 

one option, is to request data controller/or complaints removes all tel numbers from their system records?

Edited December 4, 2012 by Ford

[jamesbond]

86 letters in total, 26 since the debt was written off due to them breaking to many rules and not having any paperwork, and instructing three debt cololecting agents on me at once ..it was insane..

 

it was a 500 o/d which they spiralled to 1800 quid and then defaulted me.

 

i contested it from day one when it went 3 quid or something over the 500 limit, i brought it back into line and stopped using the account and complained.

 

they just ignored me and kept stacking compounded charges on...totally wrong on all counts.

 

i even asked them to refund the first three charges applied so i could resume using the account as normal as i was getting nowhere..

 

i got shafted and still am being and i am still complaining..they havent supplied my sar , 4 months now and despite promise after promise nothing.

 

this has been going on for 5 years and its a complete joke..they have no paperwork which they have admitted to at executive complaint level, but they insist they have the right to file the default despite how it was issued.

 

they broke 6 of the icos guidelines on defaulting, the response from them was these are guide lines not the law.

 

i can go on and on and will do as these are terrible people. They sent me 75 quid compo for one error where they laft the default unsatisfied for 5 years, and said it was atrivial matter... id spent more than 75 quid on recorded delivery letters!! lol

 

as for requesting removal of your telephone number , sounds good in practice, but every debt collector they referred on me had it, so not alot of use really.. they are animals..And this was during the charges period and the account was under complaint from me.

 

they believe they are outside the law and when the consumers do get on top of things and turn it around, they go bust...as we have seen.

 

we bail them out and they then start shafting us again, same people different department.

 

i just stand my ground and remember to not take it personal, otherwise they will grind you down, they havent won on this one yet ..

 

they do hang themselves if you keep on, they are abit stupid to be honest.

Edited December 4, 2012 by jamesbond

[Guest]

at least it has been written off! lucky to get that?

 

removal request of tel no's seems to have worked for me, no calls despite dca involvement.

Edited December 4, 2012 by Ford

[jamesbond]

i take my hat off to you ford, well done...if it works keep telling people to do it as anything that slows them down is good.

 

It was written off as they had done everything they could possibly do to me to get payemt and got no where.

 

i played the game and answered the phone and generally gave them as much trouble as they gave me and i think a couple took it personally to be honest, hence the default. it took them 18 months to default me on a dormant account in question about charges.

 

i received the default notice and section notice after the defaults were applied but was unable to prove that, and the default dates were questionable , but they didnt uphold my complaints on that either.

 

maybe they like to hear from me i dont know, but i will keep corresponding causing them to make more boo boos...they investigate and dont uphold all my complaints but over the years they have upheld a few of them so when i do put them all together to the ombudsman it wont look very good on there part..save the best till last eh!!

 

when you say it has been written off, it came at a dear price, i would have much preferred them to refund the first charge as requested and carried on with banking there.

 

The default hasnt been a problem for me to be honest as i have a pretty good job working for myself and since that have got rid of all debt except my mortgage, so for me it worked out ok, its just that the principal of the whole thing is wrong in that we have people in place to protect us like the ico and fos against the financial gangsters out there , but i feel they are as tainted as the banks, plus they take that long to get to the bottom of anything and they are not impartial in my opinion, this also tends to put people off complaining and lets the banks get away with more.

 

If things had been different and i had needed a loan or a mortgage, then that may have hurt so i dont think any one gets off lightly when they default you, yo may win but pay the price.

 

its just about trying to stop them abusing us in general i suppose thats what keeps me nagging at them, its just very very wrong what they are allowed to do to peoples lives with that credit record.

Edited December 5, 2012 by jamesbond

[Guest]

you're right, no doubt they would love to speak to me (no point as all would say say is 'in writing only', unless wanted them to make a misleading statement contrary to cputr and/or bcobs? but, no need as already have that ), but all they can do is send their template letters.

 

hat off to you for getting it written off!

[pj2017]

in post 117, I gave the bank's last reply to me. I have since received a statement of all transactions on the account since 2006.

 

However the bank's response indicated they have no overdraft facility letters or account opening agreements. And yet they ask me "to contact our Collections Team in order to agree the way forward".

 

Contacting the bank to arrange payment seems to be the final paragraph in every letter from them. But why would I do so when they have not demonstrated they have a legal contract with me? I asked them for account opening agreemtns, terms and conditions, O/D letters - and made it clear I was seeking to establish if I had ever agreed to the terms by which they are now conducting the account. As I don't recall ever agreeing to certain key conditions, including everlasting interest on a built up debt on an account that can't be closed down - I'm not sure they can take this supposed debt to court.

 

What do people think about my replying and saying "I am still waiting for you to show me where I agreed to the terms and conditions including several unfair ones by which you are managing the account now. As far as I can see, if you have no account opening agreement or overdraft facility letters, no contract exists, and I owe you nothing. If you disagree, prove it in court!"

 

Or is there another way I should word that? I want to know what documents, if any, they would rely on if put to strict proof in court, and they have consistently refused to clarify that point.

[Guest]

difficult one challenging them to take it to court. depends on your circumstances, what you've got to lose, etc. your call. before they would take it to court, it would need to go through their collections etc. if don't want to do a cca request (in which they'll come back officially saying are exempt), could preempt and just write asking, since they have said there are no o/d letters etc, for their proof that they have complied with the oft determination re o/d's? if they respond could then know what their stance would likely to be? just a thought (nb in court J would determine things on balance re any evidence before it)

Edited December 12, 2012 by Ford

[pj2017]

(nb in court J would determine things on balance re any evidence before it)

 

Well, I am not expert in the law - and civil courts are "balance of probabilities", but it is possible at various points in a court process to put the other side to strict proof. Now when this is possible is the problem for a layman to understand. Eg - if they sue me, and I am defending, and I say there was no contract - the judge would probably allow them to put me to strict proof, and as I have no proof, I couldn't prove it if I had to. Maybe it is when the judge feels that the point being argued is beyond the likely balance of probabilities that he will ask for strict proof? However, if as you say, I cannot prove it one way and they cannot prove it the other, the judge would decide on the balance of probabilities in that case. I will think of an alternative wording to my next communication with them.

[Guest]

if they take you to court, they would have the initial burden of proof.

[pj2017]

if they take you to court, they would have the initial burden of proof.

 

So am I right in thinking that if I asked them in court to prove it - and they coudln't, but I couldn't come up with account opening details either - the judge steps in and says "on the balacne of probabilites, you have to pay up, case closed"

[Guest]

if they take you to court, it would be for them to prove on balance their case ie compliance with the oft determination re o/d's (presuming that would be your defence).

when, if, they discharge their burden then for def burden re any rebuttal etc. J then decides on balance re whats before it.

Edited December 13, 2012 by Ford

[Guest]

trying to think of an eg for you:

they take you to court, you defend putting them to proof re oft determination etc, they say standard practice re exemption and to have sent xyz in satisfaction of determination but can't actually show that any letters were sent (as in robcags case for eg, but that was re summary judgment application), you say no such letters received. J then decides on balance re what's before it what would've probably happened. could go either way, but prob with the creditor. (being cynical ) ie would prob depend on J on the day unfortunately.

if for eg, cred produces a log showing certain required letters produced and therefore sent and you say didn't receive any letters. balance would prob then be with the creditor for sure. and, conversely, that could be an argument for a def ie where are the logs showing letters out?

Edited December 12, 2012 by Ford

[pj2017]

trying to think of an eg for you:

they take you to court, you defend putting them to proof re oft determination etc, they say standard practice re exemption and to have sent xyz in satisfaction of determination but can't actually show that any letters were sent (as in robcags case for eg, but that was re summary judgment application), you say no such letters received. J then decides on balance re what would've probably happened. could go either way, but prob with the creditor. (being cynical ) ie would prob depend on J on the day unfortunately.

if for eg, cred produces a log showing certain required letters produced and therefore sent and you say didn't receive any letters. balance would prob then be with the creditor for sure. and, conversely, that could be an argument for a def ie where are the logs showing letters out?

 

Yes, but surely the text of the letters sent out is more important. They have stated they don't have that. If they say "we sent you a letter in 1990 and our system shows we sent the letter although we don't know what the letter said" - what is the judge meant to make of that?

[Guest]

see the first para of my post there. creds don't keep actual copies of template letters etc sent.

if logs show a letter etc sent, there would be a letter reference (re the type of letter sent) and/or an actual description of it on the log.

Edited December 13, 2012 by Ford

[pj2017]

Well my subject access request did not produce any list of letters sent out and log descriptions.

[Guest]

did you get a copy communications/timeline log to the relevant date? if so, and doesn't show anything, then could use that.

here is robcags thread for reference. as said, it seems that he may have been 'lucky' re the J lottery on this at the time, and it has since dca resurfaced. http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?241052-Irwin-Mitchell-NastyWest-overdraft-claim-***-Won-With-Costs***

[pj2017]

No didn't receive any timeline or log. They told me I have received absolutely everything.

[Guest]

then could use that in favour, if it comes to it?

what is the status of the account atm?