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Clocked vehicle on HP


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Good evening/Morning

After reading various posts on here trying to find information that will help with my predicament, I decided to join up and see if you knowledgable bunch can help me.

 

I bought a 4 year old transit 2 years ago from a dealer on HP,

It was sold to me as 66k miles and fsh.

 

It has 2 previous keepers,

one was the dealer (name on log book)

and the other turns out to be a company Ford leased it too.

 

It failed its second mot since i owned it on a few minor bits,

i misplaced the failure sheet so went on VOSA's MOT History site to pull up the list of failures.

 

This was when I spotted the vehicles first mot at 3 years old,

and it had a mileage recorded of 168k

yet the MOT the dealer put on a few days before collection had 66k recorded.

 

i checked the service history and googled the dealer on the ford stamps in the service book.

 

They didnt exist.

postcode was even fake.

 

i rang the mot station where it had its first mot which happened to be a ford dealer.

 

they confirmed they leased the vehicle to a company for 3 years,

mot'd it at 168k and this fitted in with the 10 services they had carried outs mileage.

they also said they disposed of the vehicle by auction with 175k on the clock.

 

How should i go about resolving this?

 

I have spoken to the FC who have allocated me a mediator.

He has advised i write to the dealer which i have done and am waiting for a reply.

 

He also said its unfair to go after the FC as they arent the ones who wronged me

but if i get no reasonable solution from the dealer

i may have to sue the finance company and they will get the dealer brought into the equation when it goes to court.

 

to sum it up

im the 3rd owner

2nd was dealer

1st was somebody ford leased it to and they returned it to ford

who auctioned it with 175k.

the auction house has confirmed this.

 

I bought it as a 66k mile truck with fsh but the service history turns out to be fake.

ive paid over 7k in total and owe just over 5k

 

 

What should i be doing?

should i stop payments?

can i reject the vehicle?

 

if i reject the vehicle what is a fair sum for the usage ive had out of it?

(ive had it 2 years and done 20k miles)

 

should i even worry about being unfair chasing the FC

when i believe its the dealer that has wronged me?

 

if i stopped payments would FC take me to court where i can air my greivances without the cost of sueing them?

 

 

thanks in advance for any advice as you can tell by the time its playing quite heavily on my mind at the moment.

 

Rick

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i would IMHO, invoke SOGA?

 

the goods are not as described or alike syndrome.

 

http://www.oft.gov.uk/business-advice/treating-customers-fairly/sogahome/forcustomers

 

http://www.adviceguide.org.uk/england/consumer_e/consumer1_cars_and_other_vehicles_e/cars_buying_a_secondhand_car_e.htm

 

i concur that at some level, the FC are also resposible or at least should revoke the whole agreement.

 

let me do some digging

 

dx

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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Do not stop the payments until the matter is sorted. Although it seems reasonable to stop payments, it will complicate things as they will mark your credit file and get the DCAs on to you. If you have the money, then keep on making the payments.

I would write to the FC - a nice polite letter and tell them what has happened and that you are looking for their help.

Explain to them that you wuld rather not enter into conflict with them and that you consider that if you cooperate with each other on this, that the matter may be resolved with no loss to either of you. Hopefully they will be bright enough to see this as a poliet but veiled threat against them.

Have you informed the police? I think that you should do so and get a crime reference number.

 

If the chips go down then don't waorry about fairness to the FC. They can well afford it.

 

Is the dealer still in business? If he is then I owuldn't hang around too long trying to get a reply.

 

If I didn't hear a positvive reply from the dealer within 7 days I owuld issue a claim against him. Frankly - and despite what I have said above, I join the FC as a co-defendant. I think that appointing a mediator is just a waste of time.

 

Maybe a letter to the mediator telling them that as far as you concerned, the unfairness is neither here nor there, the FC's legal responsibilities are clear - and that either he comes up with a satisfactory figure within 7 days or you will sue.

Only make these threats if you are prepared to carry them out.

However, a small claim in these circusmstances is pretty easy and pretty risk free.

 

As to calculating the value of your claim - you will have to get a value for an idetical car but with the true mileage at the date you bought it - meaning 175k miles. On top of that you need to go through your repair bills and decide whether any of those repair bills were incurred because of the high mileage of the car and whether they would have been incurred had the car been of a lower mileage.

Any bill which can be attributed to the true high mileage should be added to the value of your claim.

 

You should then need to make a deduction for the 2 years use - but you would only do that if you were attempting the rject the car completely. If you are offering to keep it - but at the reduced cost then I think that you can probabably ignore the 2 years use because you are going to take the hit on that when you resell the car - if you can resell it at all.

 

Howeever, as I write this, I am starting to see that it is even more complicated because if you keep the car and resell it, then you wuld be in a position where you are selling a car with a false mileage. This would mean that you are acting unlawfully - and of course, if you tell the truth, you willbe unable to resell the car.

 

It seems to me that you have to reject the car and you must not accept any offer which leaves you with the car.

 

So your claim value will be the original price - less the true high mileage value - plus cost of repairs due to high mileage - less use for two years.

 

Let us know how you calculate this.

 

I think that you will need to write to the mediator and tell him that this is the olny arrangement you will accept and that they must arrange for the immediate pickup and disposal of the car and that if they will not sort it within 7 days then you will issue a claim

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Do not stop the payments until the matter is sorted. Although it seems reasonable to stop payments, it will complicate things as they will mark your credit file and get the DCAs on to you. If you have the money, then keep on making the payments.

 

I would write to the FC - a nice polite letter and tell them what has happened and that you are looking for their help.

 

Explain to them that you wuld rather not enter into conflict with them and that you consider that if you cooperate with each other on this, that the matter may be resolved with no loss to either of you. Hopefully they will be bright enough to see this as a poliet but veiled threat against them.

 

Have you informed the police? I think that you should do so and get a crime reference number.

 

 

 

If the chips go down then don't waorry about fairness to the FC. They can well afford it.

 

 

 

Is the dealer still in business? If he is then I owuldn't hang around too long trying to get a reply.

 

 

 

If I didn't hear a positvive reply from the dealer within 7 days I owuld issue a claim against him. Frankly - and despite what I have said above, I join the FC as a co-defendant. I think that appointing a mediator is just a waste of time.

 

 

 

Maybe a letter to the mediator telling them that as far as you concerned, the unfairness is neither here nor there, the FC's legal responsibilities are clear - and that either he comes up with a satisfactory figure within 7 days or you will sue.

 

Only make these threats if you are prepared to carry them out.

 

However, a small claim in these circusmstances is pretty easy and pretty risk free.

 

 

 

As to calculating the value of your claim - you will have to get a value for an idetical car but with the true mileage at the date you bought it - meaning 175k miles. On top of that you need to go through your repair bills and decide whether any of those repair bills were incurred because of the high mileage of the car and whether they would have been incurred had the car been of a lower mileage.

 

Any bill which can be attributed to the true high mileage should be added to the value of your claim.

 

 

 

You should then need to make a deduction for the 2 years use - but you would only do that if you were attempting the rject the car completely. If you are offering to keep it - but at the reduced cost then I think that you can probabably ignore the 2 years use because you are going to take the hit on that when you resell the car - if you can resell it at all.

 

 

 

Howeever, as I write this, I am starting to see that it is even more complicated because if you keep the car and resell it, then you wuld be in a position where you are selling a car with a false mileage. This would mean that you are acting unlawfully - and of course, if you tell the truth, you willbe unable to resell the car.

 

 

 

It seems to me that you have to reject the car and you must not accept any offer which leaves you with the car.

 

 

 

So your claim value will be the original price - less the true high mileage value - plus cost of repairs due to high mileage - less use for two years.

 

 

 

Let us know how you calculate this.

 

 

 

I think that you will need to write to the mediator and tell him that this is the olny arrangement you will accept and that they must arrange for the immediate pickup and disposal of the car and that if they will not sort it within 7 days then you will issue a claim

 

 

 

 

 

I have been selling cars for 30 years, this has happened to me once in the past. I sold a vauxhall cavalier to a customer turned out the mileage was wrong on the car the guy went to trading standards and asked them what to do they advised him to come and see me and find out what I was going to do about the situation.

 

I immediately offered the guy his full money back he did not want this because he liked the car and was using it every day. I came to an agreement with him and gave him some money back he was happy trading standards were happy and that was the end of it.. This was two and half years after he had bought the car.

 

You are entitled to a full refund of all monies you have paid asked the finance company for a settlement figure, it does not matter how long you have had the car the dealer has to refund you every penny. If you are happy to keep the van it will be easy to find out how much was paid for it at auction with the 175k on it. As it is now 2 years older with another 20k on it you can then offer to buy the van from the dealer for a very reduced price. Just tell him you are going to trading standards if he does not want to play ball.

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So your claim value will be the original price - less the true high mileage value - plus cost of repairs due to high mileage - less use for two years.

 

Hi again thanks for the replies i have quoted the above as i didnt quite understand what you meant, original price was £10,000 minus value with the high mileage implies i am keeping it but the minus use for 2 years implies i am giving it back?

 

The finance company has apointed the mediator, i have had no reply off the dealer so far, the mediator says if i have no joy with the dealer i may have to sue the finance co.

 

I agree in a way that i have had the use of the vehicle for 2 years but it hasnt been problem free i have had to have a replacement clutch and dual mass flywheel within 3 months of collection i got a £200 good will gesture in regards to this matter. via dealer and finance co's mediator Then i had a breakdown a little later, dealer told me to sort this as boss was away for 2 weeks but when i contacted them 2 weeks later they werent interested so i took this cost on the chin. then more recently the diff began to make an aweful noise so i had that replaced. It has been a bit of a nightmare.

Whilst fishing on the internet for info i found this...

 

 

D took a new motorcycle on HP in July 1964. The motorcycle was defective and was returned to the dealers for repairs, subsequently it was returned to the manufacturers but not all the faults were remedied. In November 1964 the rear chain broke and damaged the crank case. D, who had paid 4 monthly instalments returned the motorcycle.

 

The Court held that D was entitled to reject the motorcycle, even though he had ridden it for 4,000 miles, including 3,000 after it had been returned from the manufacturers on 15 October before he sought to reject it on 23 November.

 

Lord Denning MR said:-

 

“A man only affirms a contract when he knows of the defects and by his conduct elects to go on with the contract despite them. In this case the first defendant complained from the beginning of the defects and sent the machine back for them to be remedied. He did not elect to accept it unless they were remedied. But the defects were never satisfactorily remedied. When the rear chain broke, it was the last straw. It showed that the machine could not be relied on. This knowledge was not brought home to him until this last final incident.”

 

No credit would be given for use of the motorcycle because the value of any use he had of it was offset by the trouble and inconvenience caused to him by the defects.

 

i found this at bermans dot co dot uk when i googled rejecting a vehicle on hp

 

(i cant post links because im new )

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Hi guys seeing as i asked your advice I think it is only fair to keep you updated with my progress.

I had a reply from the dealer. He informs me one of the directors passed away last month but he wishes to help me as much as he can.

I have rung him as requested and he seemed quite keen to resolve the issue but i am not sure to what extent at this stage. One of his offers was to just put an extended warranty on the vehicle which i of course declined. he said he could give me some money towards the outstanding balance on my hire purchase which is currently £5700 ish or he could buy the vehicle off me, he said he couldn't give me a refund because i've had it for 2 years. but then when i said i understand i've had it for 2 years i understand i have the right to a refund and i'm willing to pay a reasonable amount for that use, his answer was he was told by the finance company to offer a full refund minus the cost of leasing the vehicle for 2 years which he said would be £300 a week. looking back i'm wondering if he meant a month? My reply was that would be a brand new vehicle and the lease company would be responsible for everything except tax and fuel, no mot or servicing or tyre and repair bills. I however have had far from that convenience. I mentioned the money ive spent on the truck and he said but thats just wear and tear but the way i see it is i bought a 66km truck and these things have failed at 200km+ meaning that i would have had to do 134km before they failed which would have taken me 13 years plus so i should be entitled to claim for them as expenses.

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I wouldn't take him to seriously on wanting to help you. Two years ago he was happy to con you of your hard earned money.

 

He knows he's well and truly in the deep do do and if you inform the police he could be going to court with a toothbrush.

 

The finance co will know that they are just as liable as the seller.

 

Go for a full refund of all payments made including deposit and any other cost relating to the maintenance of the vehicle, possibly with the exception of routine servicing.

 

You should remind him that he will get the benefit of the other repairs you have paid for when he gets the vehicle back.

PUTTING IT IN WRITING & KEEPING COPIES IS A MUST FOR SUCCESS

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I like what your saying it mirrors my true thoughts, but the finance co and the dealer seem to be playing the cost of usage up a lot and ignoring me when i mention my costs.

 

what are peoples views on money spent on the vehicle not including essential repairs? I ask because i have fitted a genuine transit sport bumper to the vehicle as it originally had the old black plastic front end, led rear light clusters because it was forever blowing bulbs, and had the rear windows tinted. is it fair to include that in costs or am i pushing my luck. I will only have to pay to do these things to the next one and its not my fault im having to return this one and look for another? But i guess i do have to be realistic.

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Send a letter before action outlining exactly what it is you want giving 7 days to reply and if they don't play ball sue them both (fc & dealer). I think if you don't your just going to get fobbed off.

 

And mention you will be reporting the matter to the police in conversation (not written down). It might give the guy the kick up the ass he needs.

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From the sounds of it, the seller must of known about the mileage descrepancy. I would be considering demanding a no strings full refund or passing everything on to the relevant authorities which may include the police. As said, the finance co are equally responsible.

 

In the meantime, I would stop using the van and formally reject it.

 

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I have been offered to hand the truck back and finance be settled (which once you have paid half is a right you have on a satisfactory vehicle anyway) plus a £500 payout for the £7000 i have paid and over £2000 in repair costs or keep the truck and they settle the finance. £5000 outstanding. ive been told these offers are very fair??? i dont see how loosing £8500 for 2 years use of a truck is fair? especially when all this has only come about as I discovered i had been stitched up with a clocked truck and if the truck was legit i would happily keep it.

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having spoke about how i feel this offer is insufficient i spoke about rejecting the truck with the mediator as my email to the dealer suggested i wished to. he said procedure would be to drop it off at finance co with the keys, but is this playing into their hands as they then have my money and the truck ?

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Afternoon everybody

I have been told today by the mediator that he has been told to do no more on the case, he says the offer made to resolve is a fair one and if i dont accept it i will have to take the finance co to court.

What should my next steps be? I am currently writing another letter of rejection but this time a hard copy that I will send special delivery.

Should I go to the solicitor now? or the financial ombudsman?

 

Thanks for all your help so far

 

Rick

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We used a mediator when we challenged a finance company and found that they seem to be siding with the finance company. It was only when we rejected the mediator we were able to come to an amicable result with the finance company which was satisfactory to both parties.

However I am not saying this could happen in your case, but judge from responses to your post above.

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