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I got on a Northern Rail train with no ticket and was caught


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Did u sign anything at the station..

 

Whether or not a traveller signs the inspectors' notes does not preclude the company from going forward to prosecution where an offence is detected.

 

What it does do is gives some safeguard under the P.A.C.E rules for both parties and if the 'suspect' has signed an admission that s/he intended to avoid a fare when questioned, it makes it a little more difficult to argue that it was not their intention if asked later.

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Irrelevant whether he signed something or not.

 

The law on the ticket vending machines is also quite clear. If one is there, you must use it to buy a ticket. If you don't, you breach (at a minimum) Byelaw 18.

 

Some similarities here with Corbyn v Saunders (1978) in relation to a Regulation of Railways 1889 offence.

 

Eventually:

 

 

Yes, the Corbyn judgement was considerably more complicated than that because it involved many tickets over a prolonged period and I have previously posted the whole judgement on this and other sites, but the basic principle of the decision made by Lord Widgery, Judge Park and Judge Cummings was that:

 

Any traveller who boards a train, knowing that a fare is due and who does not hold a valid ticket and who has not paid that fare before travelling, but who intends to wait until challenged and only to pay if asked, has the underlying intent not to pay.

 

That holds as true for one single journey as it does for several and it is the principle that has convicted many thousands of travellers since 1978.

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Yes I signed, it was like a small note book but I didn't even know what was written.

 

Then why did you sign it ??????

 

I'm sorry to have to say that you haven't helped yourself much here. Which station did you travel from? It may help to give you ideas to try to mitigate any offence if we know a bit more detail.

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Where pre-purchase facilities exist at a station there is a strict liability requirement that every traveller must obtain a ticket before boarding any train in compliance with National Railway Byelaw 18.1 (2005)

 

A self-service ticket machine is a pre-purchase facility.

 

This one has been tested many times.

 

I hear what u say. In reality some people might find machines difficult to operate..

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I was paniking and as English not my first language, I don't understand most of what he said,just to give you an idea,this is the first time I hear of this company,I didn't even understand northern rail, i just signed but he didn't give me anything to read.

 

My journey started from Hag fold.

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I hear what u say. In reality some people might find machines difficult to operate..

 

I do understand that certainly can be the case with the elderly in particular, who may only travel by rail very rarely and are not used to the 'new-fangled way of doing things'. .

 

However, I suggest that anyone who can sit down to post good English on a PC should have no difficulty in reading a sign and operating the very basic format that most self-service machines now use.

 

In my experience, it seems that most Magistrates seem to be convinced by that line of argument too.

Edited by Old-CodJA
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I was paniking and as English not my first language, I don't understand most of what he said,just to give you an idea,this is the first time I hear of this company,I didn't even understand northern rail, i just signed but he didn't give me anything to read.

 

You would have signed to accept that what he had written was a true account of the questioning and your answers, you should have also been given the opportunity to add any further information to the inspector, as has been pointed out this is the evidence they will use in court to prosecute.

 

I also note that a few others and myself have asked where you started your journey, can you confirm where your origin station was as this may help clear things up a little bit more.

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My journey started from hag fold,

 

as I said I don't know about these machines before and the train station system, I thought its ok to pay on my way back, as I ag going back to the original place, yes i can read signs but i was assuming l'll buy a ticket on my way back and i don't have to do it now.but i never ever heard or seen these machines as i just used trains about five times.

Edited by najrom
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In case it's helpful, I found this on the National Rail Enquiries website.

 

Ticket office openingclear.gif Monday-Friday 06:25-12:55

Saturday Closed

Sunday Closed

Self-service machinesclear.gifNo

 

Penalty faresclear.gifPenalty Fares do not apply when travelling from Hag Fold station.

Illegitimi non carborundum

 

 

 

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PS najrom I'd be very interested to know where I can take a train and pay on the way back, I haven't heard of that before.

 

But what if I get off without paying and then decide not to travel back? I wouldn't have paid anything.

 

HB

Illegitimi non carborundum

 

 

 

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PS najrom I'd be very interested to know where I can take a train and pay on the way back, I haven't heard of that before.

 

But what if I get off without paying and then decide not to travel back? I wouldn't have paid anything.

 

 

HB

 

pmsl..

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do you think that if I told them on my way back that I didn't pay at the start of my journey becouse the office was closed and no one on the train and I would like to pay now will they refuse and stop me?

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do you think that if I told them on my way back that I didn't pay at the start of my journey becouse the office was closed and no one on the train and I would like to pay now will they refuse and stop me?

 

It might just be me, but I don't understand what you're asking. And remember that Old-CodJA said in post #18 that the fare is due at the time of travelling.

 

HB

Illegitimi non carborundum

 

 

 

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honeybee13 : that was an answer to your question of how i'm going to pay on my way back, as I said from the start that I thought its ok to pay on my way back, and I was wrong because i was stopped.

Lets say that I get out of the station without being cought, and on my way back I told them that I want to pay now because the office was closed and the man who sells the tickets didn't come down the train, whould they refuse and stop me then?

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I think this thread has become slightly muddled and a couple of questions may not have been answered.

 

najrom, the letter you're expecting [which may not arrive if you're lucky] is to ask you to tell Northern Rail what happened on the day. Then you write back with your version of events and then they decide if they want to go to court or not.

 

Even if they did decide to 'do' court, you could still ask if they would settle with you at any time up to the court date.

 

As others have said, one step at a time.

 

HB

Illegitimi non carborundum

 

 

 

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Hi everyone,

I have a question please, is it ok to deal with this matter while i'm away, like replying for the letter and the negotiation without being physicaly here, as i have a friend who can check the post for me and send me the letter.

Edited by najrom
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