Jump to content


  • Tweets

  • Posts

    • They have defended the claim by saying that the job was of unsatisfactory standard and they had to call another carpenter to remedy. My husband has text messages about them losing the keys a second time and also an email. What do they hope to achieve??? Most importantly,  as far as I have seen online, now I need to wait for paperwork from the court, correct?
    • The Notice to Hirer does not comply with the protection of Freedoms Act 2012 Schedule  4 . This is before I ask if Europarks have sent you a copy of the PCN they sent to Arval along with a copy of the hire agreement et. if they haven't done that either you are totally in the clear and have nothing to worry about and nothing to pay. The PCN they have sent you is supposed to be paid by you according to the Act within 21 days. The chucklebuts have stated 28 days which is the time that motorists have to pay. Such a basic and simple thing . The Act came out in 2012 and still they cannot get it right which is very good news for you. Sadly there is no point in telling them- they won't accept it because they lose their chance to make any money out of you. they are hoping that by writing to you demanding money plus sending in their  unregulated debt collectors and sixth rate solicitors that you might be so frightened as to pay them money so that you can sleep at night. Don't be surprised if some of their letters are done in coloured crayons-that's the sort of  level of people you will be dealing with. Makes great bedding for the rabbits though. Euro tend not to be that litigious but while you can safely ignore the debt collectors just keep an eye out for a possible Letter of Claim. They are pretty rare but musn't be ignored. Let us know so that you can send a suitably snotty letter to them showing that you are not afraid of them and are happy to go to Court as you like winning.  
    • They did reply to my defence stating it would fail and enclosed copies of NOA, DN Term letter and account statements. All copies of T&C's that could be reconstructions and the IP address on there resolves to the town where MBNA offices are, not my location
    • Here are 7 of our top tips to help you connect with young people who have left school or otherwise disengaged.View the full article
    • My defence was standard no paperwork:   1.The Defendant contends that the particulars of claim are generic in nature. The Defendant accordingly sets out its case below and relies on CPR r 16.5 (3) in relation to any particular allegation to which a specific response has not been made. 2. Paragraph 1 is noted. The Defendant has had a contractual relationship with MBNA Limited in the past. The Defendant does not recognise the reference number provided by the claimant within its particulars and has sought verification from the claimant who is yet to comply with requests for further information. 3. Paragraph 2 is denied. The Defendant maintains that a default notice was never received. The Claimant is put to strict proof to that a default notice was issued by MBNA Limited and received by the Defendant. 4. Paragraph 3 is denied. The Defendant is unaware of any legal assignment or Notice of Assignment allegedly served from either the Claimant or MBNA Limited. 5. On the xx/xx/2023 the Defendant requested information pertaining to this claim by way of a CCA 1974 Section 78 request. The claimant is yet to respond to this request. On the xx/xx/2023 a CPR 31.14 request was sent to Kearns who is yet to respond. To date, xx/xx/2023, no documentation has been received. The claimant remains in default of my section 78 request. 6. It is therefore denied with regards to the Defendant owing any monies to the Claimant, the Claimant has failed to provide any evidence of proof of assignment being sent/ agreement/ balance/ breach or termination requested by CPR 31.14, therefore the Claimant is put to strict proof to: (a) show how the Defendant entered into an agreement; and (b) show and evidence the nature of breach and service of a default notice pursuant to Section 87(1) CCA1974 (c) show how the claimant has reached the amount claimed for; and (d) show how the Claimant has the legal right, either under statute or equity to issue a claim; 7. As per Civil Procedure Rule 16.5(4), it is expected that the Claimant prove the allegation that the money is owed. 8. On the alternative, as the Claimant is an assignee of a debt, it is denied that the Claimant has the right to lay a claim due to contraventions of Section 136 of the Law of Property Act and Section 82A of the consumer credit Act 1974. 9. By reasons of the facts and matters set out above, it is denied that the Claimant is entitled to the relief claimed or any relief.
  • Recommended Topics

  • Our picks

    • If you are buying a used car – you need to read this survival guide.
      • 1 reply
    • Hello,

      On 15/1/24 booked appointment with Big Motoring World (BMW) to view a mini on 17/1/24 at 8pm at their Enfield dealership.  

      Car was dirty and test drive was two circuits of roundabout on entry to the showroom.  Was p/x my car and rushed by sales exec and a manager into buying the mini and a 3yr warranty that night, sale all wrapped up by 10pm.  They strongly advised me taking warranty out on car that age (2017) and confirmed it was honoured at over 500 UK registered garages.

      The next day, 18/1/24 noticed amber engine warning light on dashboard , immediately phoned BMW aftercare team to ask for it to be investigated asap at nearest garage to me. After 15 mins on hold was told only their 5 service centres across the UK can deal with car issues with earliest date for inspection in March ! Said I’m not happy with that given what sales team advised or driving car. Told an amber warning light only advisory so to drive with caution and call back when light goes red.

      I’m not happy to do this, drive the car or with the after care experience (a sign of further stresses to come) so want a refund and to return the car asap.

      Please can you advise what I need to do today to get this done. 
       

      Many thanks 
      • 81 replies
    • Housing Association property flooding. https://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/topic/438641-housing-association-property-flooding/&do=findComment&comment=5124299
      • 161 replies
    • We have finally managed to obtain the transcript of this case.

      The judge's reasoning is very useful and will certainly be helpful in any other cases relating to third-party rights where the customer has contracted with the courier company by using a broker.
      This is generally speaking the problem with using PackLink who are domiciled in Spain and very conveniently out of reach of the British justice system.

      Frankly I don't think that is any accident.

      One of the points that the judge made was that the customers contract with the broker specifically refers to the courier – and it is clear that the courier knows that they are acting for a third party. There is no need to name the third party. They just have to be recognisably part of a class of person – such as a sender or a recipient of the parcel.

      Please note that a recent case against UPS failed on exactly the same issue with the judge held that the Contracts (Rights of Third Parties) Act 1999 did not apply.

      We will be getting that transcript very soon. We will look at it and we will understand how the judge made such catastrophic mistakes. It was a very poor judgement.
      We will be recommending that people do include this adverse judgement in their bundle so that when they go to county court the judge will see both sides and see the arguments against this adverse judgement.
      Also, we will be to demonstrate to the judge that we are fair-minded and that we don't mind bringing everything to the attention of the judge even if it is against our own interests.
      This is good ethical practice.

      It would be very nice if the parcel delivery companies – including EVRi – practised this kind of thing as well.

       

      OT APPROVED, 365MC637, FAROOQ, EVRi, 12.07.23 (BRENT) - J v4.pdf
        • Like
  • Recommended Topics

I got on a Northern Rail train with no ticket and was caught


style="text-align: center;">  

Thread Locked

because no one has posted on it for the last 4258 days.

If you need to add something to this thread then

 

Please click the "Report " link

 

at the bottom of one of the posts.

 

If you want to post a new story then

Please

Start your own new thread

That way you will attract more attention to your story and get more visitors and more help 

 

Thanks

Recommended Posts

I am new to this forum, but I really need your help and advice please.

 

My journey started from A where was the booking office closed at 19:10 heading to the destination B. First I do not have any experience with trains and train stations before as I always use the car, and this is about the fifth time I use the train as I’m visiting a friend who lives in another city in England for two weeks.

 

All first times when I used the train were in the morning and I buy the tickets from the booking office, this time which was in the evening the booking office was closed and a lady there told me I can buy a ticket on the train, but the man who sells the tickets was not there .

 

I got off the train, and as I don’t know the train station system, I thought its ok to buy a ticket on my way back, and because I had no opportunity to buy one from the booking office and on the train and I don’t know that there are ticket machines, its ok to do that, it sounds stupid but this is the truth. On my way out from the station two men stopped me, had my name and address, asked me questions ,told them the truth that I thought I can buy a ticket on my way back, and I asked them if I can pay at that time but they refused and told me to wait for a letter from Northern Rail. Until that time I don’t know how series it is, until I searched on the internet.

 

By the way this is my first time and I never been in trouble with law before. I am really worried if this will go to court and I am willing to pay any fine just to get out of this.

 

What should I do? And what should I write to them after receiving their letter? Please help me, I'm panicking.

 

Any help would be much appreciated!!

 

Regards

Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi there,

 

If they caught up with you on the train I'd say you'd probably be looking at hearing from Northern Rail with regards to them wanting to Prosecute you under a railway Byelaw (18.1). However, you were caught leaving the station at your journey;s end, presumably passing the last point at which a ticket could have been bought, and therefore seems a little far fetched tyhat you'd have bought one at all. That being said, they probably will want to prosecute you under the more serious Regulation of Railways Act 1889, This is a PNC recordable offence if convicted and carries stiffer penalties than the Byelaw. I suggest waiting for a letter from Northern and responding to it accordingly. I don't have time to go into the ins and outs of the penalties now, but someone else will be along soon who will go into that in detail. What I will say though is, that from the inspectors point of view, it would be clear that the fare would not have been paid and that is how Northern Rail prosecutors will see it.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I am new to this forum, but I really need your help and advice please.

 

My journey started from A where was the booking office closed at 19:10 heading to the destination B. First I do not have any experience with trains and train stations before as I always use the car, and this is about the fifth time I use the train as I’m visiting a friend who lives in another city in England for two weeks.

 

All first times when I used the train were in the morning and I buy the tickets from the booking office, this time which was in the evening the booking office was closed and a lady there told me I can buy a ticket on the train, but the man who sells the tickets was not there .

 

I got off the train, and as I don’t know the train station system, I thought its ok to buy a ticket on my way back, and because I had no opportunity to buy one from the booking office and on the train and I don’t know that there are ticket machines, its ok to do that, it sounds stupid but this is the truth. On my way out from the station two men stopped me, had my name and address, asked me questions ,told them the truth that I thought I can buy a ticket on my way back, and I asked them if I can pay at that time but they refused and told me to wait for a letter from Northern Rail. Until that time I don’t know how series it is, until I searched on the internet.

 

By the way this is my first time and I never been in trouble with law before. I am really worried if this will go to court and I am willing to pay any fine just to get out of this.

 

What should I do? And what should I write to them after receiving their letter? Please help me, I'm panicking.

 

Any help would be much appreciated!!

 

Regards

 

I have often used Northern rail and when a ticket office has been closed I have purchased a ticket on the train. If it was me I would not admit liability at this stage..

Link to post
Share on other sites

I have often used Northern rail and when a ticket office has been closed I have purchased a ticket on the train. If it was me I would not admit liability at this stage..

 

He would have more than likely admitted liability under caution, unfortunately like stigy has pointed out he was stopped AFTER the last point of buying a ticket would have been possible, also depends on other station facilities such as tvm, the op is best to wait for their response in first instance.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Was there a ticket office opened at the other end I wonder..

 

Hello there.

 

I wonder how that would work if our OP had only planned to travel one way? They might have walked out of the destination station without paying at all.

 

My best, HB

Illegitimi non carborundum

 

 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Does not matter if there was as this applies to the start of the journey, if for instance there was no method of purchasing a ticket at origin station then the op should have sought to buy a ticket at earliest opportunity, im not familiar with northern areas so not sure on tvms etc.

 

We also do not know stations that op is refering to so is hard to give definitive answers, but i would imagine the more serious case of RRA sec 5.3a would apply if caught outside the station without a ticket.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi everyone and thank you for your responses.

 

Stigy, could you please tell me, what the

 

railway byelaw(18.1) and railways Act

 

1889 are. Where can I read more about

 

them?

 

Just wanted to ask, do you think this

 

being my first time is going to help in

 

any way?

 

I feel really down, because if I tell them

 

my version of what happened, I will

 

appear as if I'm lying, because they will

 

not believe that there is a person does

 

not know these rules, but I really don't,

 

so what should I say to let them beleive

 

me and agree to settle this out of court.

 

The other problem is the English is not

 

my first language, and I can't write to

 

them in a way that will explain exactly

 

what happened, as I read on other

 

threads that the outcome will depend on

 

how they see the incident after reading

 

my letter. I contacted a lawyer and told

 

me that writing the letter will cost me

 

about £300. I have no idea if this is the

 

normal cost or not.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi everyone and thank you for your responses.

 

Stigy, could you please tell me, what the railway byelaw(18.1) and railways Act 1889 are. Where can I read more about them?.

 

 

Right at the beginning of this forum there are a number of 'sticky' posts with the information you are looking tor

 

See: http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?309720-National-Railway-Byelaws-(2005)-Ticketing.

 

Then, to read Section 5 of The Regulation of Railways Act [1889]

 

See this link: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/Vict/52-53/57/contents

 

In relation to your comment that 'they will not believe that there is a person that does not know these rules', please bear in mind that if an offence is committed, ignorance of the legislation is not a defence. It may be put forward as a factor in mitigation, but does not mean that no offence has been committed.

Edited by Old-CodJA
Link to post
Share on other sites

Thank you for your replies.

Are there anything I should do before receiving the letter?

Is it a good idea to phone them at this stage to apologise and offer to pay a fine?

I am thinking of going back to the train station and find both men who cought me they might tell me what they wrote about me, because at that time as a result of the shock I can't remember what they have been saying.

 

Could you tell me would that be a good idea or not please.

 

And about the lawyer do you think I need one as just writing the letter costs £300.

 

Thank you

Link to post
Share on other sites

This is my personal opinion. I would wait until u receive something in the post. Out of interest, when u completed your journey, was there a ticket office open and was u stopped or was you caught. the latter could imply that u had intended not to pay. Either way I would personally wait for the post..

Link to post
Share on other sites

Consumer dude : thank you for your response

 

I stopped at Manchester vectoria station,it wa very big station, and as I said because of no experience and in my mind I assumed that its ok to pay on my way back, I was just about two steps away from the gate to exit the station when the two men stopped me, they were not wearing uniforms. What is the difference between stopping me and cought me?

 

Thank you

Edited by najrom
Link to post
Share on other sites

Thank you for your replies.

Are there anything I should do before receiving the letter?

Is it a good idea to phone them at this stage to apologise and offer to pay a fine?

I am thinking of going back to the train station and find both men who cought me they might tell me what they wrote about me, because at that time as a result of the shock I can't remember what they have been saying.

 

Could you tell me would that be a good idea or not please.

 

And about the lawyer do you think I need one as just writing the letter costs £300.

 

Thank you

 

Hello again.

 

There isn't really any point in contacting the rail company until [or if] they write to you. If you ring, they are unlikely to be able to locate your papers and so won't be able to advise you. The time to negotiate is after you receive a letter.

 

I don't know if the men at the station will tell you or remember what they said about you. I think you see that statement after you tell them your side of the story and if it goes to court.

 

People from this forum don't usually go to a lawyer, I'd be inclined to save the £300.

 

My best, HB

Illegitimi non carborundum

 

 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

honeybee13 : thank you for your response.

 

Do you know please how long will take for me to receive the letter? and is this letter will say if they are going to send me to court or not?

 

Thank you

Edited by najrom
Link to post
Share on other sites

honeybee13 : thank you for your response.

 

Do you know please how long will take for me to receive the letter? and is this letter will say if they

are going to send me to court or not?

 

Thank you

 

I will try to help by saying that their is really is no point in thinking too much about what may or may not happen. Just wait for the post and than post again..

Link to post
Share on other sites

I am new to this forum, but I really need your help and advice please.

 

My journey started from A where was the booking office closed at 19:10 heading to the destination B. First I do not have any experience with trains and train stations before as I always use the car, and this is about the fifth time I use the train as I’m visiting a friend who lives in another city in England for two weeks.

 

Which station did you start your journey from?

 

All first times when I used the train were in the morning and I buy the tickets from the booking office, this time which was in the evening the booking office was closed and a lady there told me I can buy a ticket on the train, but the man who sells the tickets was not there .

 

Was there a self-service ticket machine at the station?

 

I got off the train, and as I don’t know the train station system, I thought its ok to buy a ticket on my way back, and because I had no opportunity to buy one from the booking office and on the train and I don’t know that there are ticket machines, its ok to do that, it sounds stupid but this is the truth.

 

A rail fare is due at the time of travel and not later. Why did you not approach staff on the train or when it reached the platform in Manchester?

 

On my way out from the station two men stopped me, had my name and address, asked me questions ,told them the truth that I thought I can buy a ticket on my way back, and I asked them if I can pay at that time but they refused and told me to wait for a letter from Northern Rail. Until that time I don’t know how series it is, until I searched on the internet.

 

If you were exiting the station when stopped and questioned by plain clothed inspectors it is very likely that you will be charged with 'intending to avoid payment of a fare contrary to Section 5.3.a of The Regulation of Railways Act (1889)

 

By the way this is my first time and I never been in trouble with law before. I am really worried if this will go to court and I am willing to pay any fine just to get out of this.

 

What should I do? And what should I write to them after receiving their letter? Please help me, I'm panicking.

 

Any help would be much appreciated!!

 

Regards

 

 

Wait until you get a letter from the train operating company and then you will have the correct reference allocated to your case. Once you get the letter come back and tell us what it says.

 

Then we may beble to help with what you should write in reply.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Consumer dude : thank you for your reply and yes you are right, so I should try not to think too much untill I get the letter, but it is very hard though.

 

Old-CodJA : thank you for your reply

 

There was no self-service ticket machine at the station (where I started my journey from) , even these machines ,if you believe me, I haven't used them before and I don't know they are exist at all untill the incident happened.

Edited by najrom
Link to post
Share on other sites

Hello there.

 

I wonder how that would work if our OP had only planned to travel one way? They might have walked out of the destination station without paying at all.

 

My best, HB

 

Does not matter if there was as this applies to the start of the journey, if for instance there was no method of purchasing a ticket at origin station then the op should have sought to buy a ticket at earliest opportunity, im not familiar with northern areas so not sure on tvms etc.

 

We also do not know stations that op is refering to so is hard to give definitive answers, but i would imagine the more serious case of RRA sec 5.3a would apply if caught outside the station without a ticket.

 

 

This is exactly why I asked najrom which station the journey was started at, but we are no wiser yet?

Link to post
Share on other sites

Thank you everyone.

 

If I get charged with (intending to avoid payment of fare), are there still any chance for me to settle the matter by offering to pay a fine without going to court? or automatically after being charged with this I have to go to court? and does that mean I'm going to have a criminal record for sure?

Thank you so much and sorry for asking too many questions just wanted to know what to expect and what the possible outcomes are in order to prepare myself for all the possibilities.


Edited by najrom
Link to post
Share on other sites

No doubt, things will be come cleaner at a later date. The question I'm eager to ask is regarding these self service machines. not everyone understands how to use them but what does the law say I wonder on that issue..

 

Where pre-purchase facilities exist at a station there is a strict liability requirement that every traveller must obtain a ticket before boarding any train in compliance with National Railway Byelaw 18.1 (2005)

 

A self-service ticket machine is a pre-purchase facility.

 

This one has been tested many times.

Edited by Old-CodJA
Link to post
Share on other sites

Did u sign anything at the station..

 

Irrelevant whether he signed something or not.

 

The law on the ticket vending machines is also quite clear. If one is there, you must use it to buy a ticket. If you don't, you breach (at a minimum) Byelaw 18 (criminal) or National Rail Conditions of Carriage (contract/civil).

 

Some similarities here with Corbyn v Saunders (1978) in relation to a Regulation of Railways 1889 offence.

 

He was convicted by a magistrate, who held that the mental element necessary to constitute the offence, viz an intention to avoid payment of the fare, was established by the fact that he did not intend to pay the balance of the fare before leaving the railway property. C appealed, contending that it had to be shown that he intended permanently to avoid payment.

 

Eventually:

 

The appeal would be dismissed because it was sufficient for the purposes of s 5(3)(a) to establish, as had been done, that the accused did not have, by the time he passed the ticket collector at his destination, an unqualified intention to pay the proper fare for his journey

 

Perhaps relevent here:

 

...his intention was only to pay if the railway authorities requested payment....

...if he fails to tender the outstanding balance of the fare, at the latest when passing the ticket collector on the station of destination, the requisite intent to avoid payment is proved.
Edited by firstclassx
Link to post
Share on other sites

  • Recently Browsing   0 Caggers

    • No registered users viewing this page.

  • Have we helped you ...?


×
×
  • Create New...