Bedroom Tax - Coming Soom

[vicky87]

Oh dear, this will affect us. We have a 3 bedroomed house because my partner has his children to stay at weekends...but they dont live with us. We originally we just going to apply for a 2 but when we explained the situation to the council they advised us to get a 3, and also said it would be a lot quicker to get a 3 than a 2 :S

[count orlok]

I had a house that i as paying a mortgage on. Then it was decided that the area I lived in would be pulled down and regenerated. The price we got (less that we paid with money spent on improvments) was not enough to buy a new home and we couldn't get a mortage because we where only a few years from retirment.

 

We wanted to stay in the area because of family and work. At first we rented our propety from the council (it took over 6 years to pull down) while we waited for new social housing to be finnished, and paid rent to the council (which was 3 time as much as the mortgage). We were allocated a new 3 bedroomed (2 doubles and a box room) home because we needed seperate bedrooms for medicl reasons and our son was still living at home. Later on wife retired and our son left home.

 

How will these new rules apply to us? We have 3 rooms and according to them we only need one as we are married. Could we appeal on the strength of medical grounds and the 3rd room (2m x 3m) is not big enough to be counted?

 

If we lose 24% of our HB should just about be able to afford it while I still get my DLA, but when I lose that with PIP things will really be tight. Moving is not an option. In our area there are virtually no single bedroomed places to rent (and even those that are, are ocupied), even 2 beds are rare. Most are 3, 4 or even 5 bed houses.

 

Even when the tories conned their way into government I was not too worried as they had promised to protect DLA and all pensioner benefits and look after the disabled. Now with each week that passes I learn of more cuts and broken promises. I am now worried about the lose of the welfare state and the NHS that i rely on to keep alive.

[RaeUK]

worried33 - just to clarify, I didn't think it was your personal view.

 

count orlok - if you have now reached the dizzy heights of pensionable age, this will not apply to you. If you haven't, but are very close to, hang in there!

[worried33]

On a related note, you may recall that the cuts to, and restrictions on, Housing Benefit were justified by the Coalition on the grounds that it would place deflationary pressure on the rental market, forcing landlords to reduce rents. So, I wonder how that's working out.

 

Rental costs in private sector 'at record'

 

Oh dear.

 

it wont work out because a landlord isnt going to rent out at a loss for any period of time.

 

The only way to deflate the market is decrease demand which the only way to do that is build more housing allocated for rent (not for sale).

[JimTheGent]

When is a bedroom not a bedroom? Does putting a computer into a room make it an office? There is no actual statutory definition of what constitutes a bedroom so how can Housing Benefit be reduced based on the number of bedrooms a house has when a bedroom has not been defined legally? Is this enough to stop recovery action by a landlord whilst a legal definition of a bedroom is pursued? How long would it take to define and who would do it?

[count orlok]

count orlok - if you have now reached the dizzy heights of pensionable age, this will not apply to you. If you haven't, but are very close to, hang in there!

 

I've got 11 years to go (was 10 but they moved the goalposts), wife's already got her bus pass and gets pension credits. I am also her carer.

[count orlok]

When is a bedroom not a bedroom? Does putting a computer into a room make it an office? There is no actual statutory definition of what constitutes a bedroom so how can Housing Benefit be reduced based on the number of bedrooms a house has when a bedroom has not been defined legally? Is this enough to stop recovery action by a landlord whilst a legal definition of a bedroom is pursued? How long would it take to define and who would do it?

 

For this new tax the landlord will be the one who says the number of bedrooms.

 

Legally it must be more than 70 square feet.

 

So this may give grounds for an apeal, where one has a box room.

[osdset]

Legally it must be more than 70 square feet.

 

Where did you get this from Count? I have been searching far and wide and can't find a legal definition regarding size.

[SWLABR9]

Surely then it's in all landlords' interest to universally declare only one room in any household is a bedroom? Q.E.D. If the govt wants to dispute it, it'll have to do so on a case by case basis or at least until precedent is created. At the moment I can't see a problem so long as landlords stand ready to define existing spare bedrooms as existing spare rooms.

[osdset]

Surely then it's in all landlords' interest to universally declare only one room in any household is a bedroom? Q.E.D. If the govt wants to dispute it, it'll have to do so on a case by case basis or at least until precedent is created. At the moment I can't see a problem so long as landlords stand ready to define existing spare bedrooms as existing spare rooms.

I would think it is totally not in a landlords best interest, why accept the rental on a one bed property if the property clearly has more than one bedroom? Most landlords aren't going to be bothered that their tenant will have to make up the shortfall, what is likely to happen is that the rental opportunities for those on benefits will simply dry up unless they can guarantee the 14-25% benefit shortfall.

[cupcake69]

I was wondering how this will affect us. We live in a four bedroom rented house. We have four children but in a year or so the oldest two will be moving out. We are also in the process of getting a grant to to have a lift installed and the bathroom turned into a wet room for my husband. Once this is done, we would not want or be able to move as we will have everything sorted for my husbands disabilities. Will having the adaptations done to the house make us exempt from the bedroom tax?

[SWLABR9]

Landlords can still charge what they like, can't they? It'll become the fashion for multi-room properties to be charged at the same rate as multi-bedroomed properties but they just won't be referred to as multi-bedroomed, for obvious reasons.

[id6052]

social landlords have to set rent based upon a number of factors, one of the main factors is number of rooms - so not in their interest to understate number of rooms

[SWLABR9]

No-one's suggesting they do. Well, I'm not anyway

[RaeUK]

Off the top of my head, cupcake, I suspect you'll find a property heavily adapted for disabled needs will be excempt. But please don't take my word for it and do some research. Google will provide most of the documents on this ...

[estellyn]

This obviously isn't an incentive for people to move, its simply a benefit cut for those it applies to. It is blatantly discriminatory - sex discrimination, and disability discrimination.

 

Unfortunately it fits the current 'sink or swim' philosophy of the Tories. From what I can see, their philosophy assumes that every individual born has exactly the same prospects for work, education, health and wealth - therefore if you're poor, ill educated, in poor health, disabled, or without a job, then it is obviously your own fault, and you shouldn't be taking money from hard working individuals who have made the best of their lives. Therefore, because they are compassionate, the Tories will give you the bare minimum to keep you alive.....maybe a little less. But we should be grateful, because they haven't brought back workhouses or debtors prison.....but there is the work programme, where you work for rich people's companies in order to receive far less than what is considered a living wage, so that rich people can get richer by spending less on wages and employee related expenses.

 

And of course the benevolent Tories are doing all this for our own good. Because don't you know that we (the poor) can't look after ourselves properly, we need guidance and prompting, and harder discipline otherwise we'd just sit around doing nothing all the time. These handouts are destroying our will and our spirits, and we don't know what's best for ourselves. By gradually diminishing these 'handouts' we will miraculously be healed, or be able to find a job (even though there aren't enough for everyone) because a job will also miraculously appear. Because, don't you know, that the rich people are hoarding all their money at the moment because poor people haven't been working hard enough, which has caused a recession - once we prove we can work hard, and are worthy, the rich people will create jobs for us and the recession will end. If only we weren't so lazy, and demanding all these employment laws and legal protections and making it so difficult for the rich to run their businesses - then there would have been no recession at all, and these harsh benefit changes wouldn't be needed - we brought this on ourselves, friends.

[estellyn]

Of course a good socialist starts from the perspective that a welfare system should be designed on the basis that in individual has absolutely no control over what circumstances they will be be born into and what opportunities or life events they have to deal with.

 

Imagine you're a soul waiting to be allocated to a body. You have no idea whether your family will be rich or poor, whether your body will be healthy or sick or disabled, whether something will happen in your life to make things easier or harder, whether you'll get a good education or bad education, whether your parents will be loving or abusive. Now design a welfare system.

 

I suspect every single person would design a much more generous system, not knowing what was waiting for them in their life. Its much easier to lower welfare benefits, knowing you'll never need to make use of the system.

[osdset]

This obviously isn't an incentive for people to move, its simply a benefit cut for those it applies to. It is blatantly discriminatory - sex discrimination, and disability discrimination.

 

Unfortunately it fits the current 'sink or swim' philosophy of the Tories. From what I can see, their philosophy assumes that every individual born has exactly the same prospects for work, education, health and wealth - therefore if you're poor, ill educated, in poor health, disabled, or without a job, then it is obviously your own fault, and you shouldn't be taking money from hard working individuals who have made the best of their lives. Therefore, because they are compassionate, the Tories will give you the bare minimum to keep you alive.....maybe a little less. But we should be grateful, because they haven't brought back workhouses or debtors prison.....but there is the work programme, where you work for rich people's companies in order to receive far less than what is considered a living wage, so that rich people can get richer by spending less on wages and employee related expenses.

 

And of course the benevolent Tories are doing all this for our own good. Because don't you know that we (the poor) can't look after ourselves properly, we need guidance and prompting, and harder discipline otherwise we'd just sit around doing nothing all the time. These handouts are destroying our will and our spirits, and we don't know what's best for ourselves. By gradually diminishing these 'handouts' we will miraculously be healed, or be able to find a job (even though there aren't enough for everyone) because a job will also miraculously appear. Because, don't you know, that the rich people are hoarding all their money at the moment because poor people haven't been working hard enough, which has caused a recession - once we prove we can work hard, and are worthy, the rich people will create jobs for us and the recession will end. If only we weren't so lazy, and demanding all these employment laws and legal protections and making it so difficult for the rich to run their businesses - then there would have been no recession at all, and these harsh benefit changes wouldn't be needed - we brought this on ourselves, friends.

 

Oh the regret, to think that if I had not been such a silly boy all those years ago I would not have missed out on all the furtive goings on in the changing rooms at boarding school, I would have gone on to develop a taste for flagellation and would slip away from parliamentary duties three times per week to be beaten across the buttocks with a studded leather belt by some Mayfair dominatrix at £300 per session.

What a waste of a life, my hand wringing knows no bounds and the wailing and gnashing of teeth can be heard three doors away.

[id6052]

cupcake69

 

i have just had a look at the draft regulations and the only apparent exemptions are:

 

1. shared ownership
   
2. pension age
   
3. mooring charges for houseboats and payments in respect of the site on which a caravan or mobile home stands;
   
4. temporary accommodation
   
5. supported exempt accommodation
   

there does not appear to be any exemption for accommodation that has been adapted to meet disability needs

[osdset]

cupcake69

 

i have just had a look at the draft regulations and the only apparent exemptions are:

 

 

1. shared ownership
   
2. pension age
   
3. mooring charges for houseboats and payments in respect of the site on which a caravan or mobile home stands;
   
4. temporary accommodation
   
5. supported exempt accommodation
   

 

there does not appear to be any exemption for accommodation that has been adapted to meet disability needs

 

Yes, it's based on the amount of bedrooms alone, interestingly Lord Freud has stated publicly that the government has no intention of making a legal definition of what constitutes a bedroom, he added that landlords were best placed to decide.

[estellyn]

Oh the regret, to think that if I had not been such a silly boy all those years ago I would not have missed out on all the furtive goings on in the changing rooms at boarding school, I would have gone on to develop a taste for flagellation and would slip away from parliamentary duties three times per week to be beaten across the buttocks with a studded leather belt by some Mayfair dominatrix at £300 per session.

What a waste of a life, my hand wringing knows no bounds and the wailing and gnashing of teeth can be heard three doors away.

 

So, so true.

[RaeUK]

... the wailing and gnashing of teeth can be heard three doors away.

 

So, you did get to visit that Mayfair dominatrix after all ...

[JimTheGent]

After thinking about this I wonder if Housing Associations could set up a shared ownership scheme for existing tenants where the extra "rooms" could be purchased for a nominal sum (e.g. £100 per room) and sold back to the Housing Association when the tenancy ends. It could use existing legislation designed for Private Tenants to protect deposits.

 

This would circumvent the Housing Benefit reforms because "shared ownership" is exempted under the welfare reforms and Housing Benefit cannot be reduced because technically the rooms are owned by the tenant.

 

The big question is whether Housing Associations would co-operate and what shape the contract would need to take in order to protect them from actually selling part of the house to the tenant on the cheap. Perhaps the tenant could pay a deposit against the true value of each room and the remainder deferred with the option to realise the full shared ownership if circumstances improve?

 

Is this workable? Thoughts anyone

[osdset]

I very much doubt that Housing Associations would entertain this idea, after all what's in it for them apart from incurring significant costs to set up? And why would they agree in the first place? Housing associations have long since ceased to be the benevolent charitable trusts that many were originally set up to be.

 

Over the last thirty years I have witnessed the one I am a tenant of going from a small friendly association to a huge corporation that's lost it's way in terms of social responsibility, it's no different from any other major business, the charitable status is a tax dodge IMHO. Housing associations are no different now than any other landlords all they worry about is getting the rents in.

Edited August 25, 2012 by osdset

[JimTheGent]

I very much doubt that Housing Associations would entertain this idea, after all what's in it for them apart from incurring significant costs to set up? And why would they agree in the first place? Housing associations have long since ceased to be the benevolent charitable trusts that many were originally set up to be.

 

They may go for it purely for financial reasons. The Government has foisted the responsibility of defining a bedroom which then allows the Housing Benefits to be reduced. It is Housing Associations who will be faced with huge rent arrears on their balance sheets, the cost of evictions and legal fees then the impossible task of rehousing tenants in suitable properties which do not exist.

 

Whilst I agree many have ceased to be the charitable and benevolent institutions they originally started out to be, they will want to limit the cost and the fallout to their finances. Uncollected rent will cost jobs for people working in Housing associations. I do not believe the Housing Associations want the Bedroom Tax any more than the tenants.

 

This is why I thing the "deferred shared ownership" idea I proposed above may be of interest to them. They would effectively manage to circumvent the effects of the Bedroom Tax whilst till complying with the rules and not needing to find one or two bedroom properties which do not exist. Plus the tenants will not need to move home. All that is needed is a variation to the tenancy agreement and a contract for the "deferred shared ownership". Low cost and effective.

 

The Government has attempted to solve the housing crisis by not building more homes and by throwing vulnerable people out of their homes, whilst generating additional revenues from their misery. The "deferred shared ownership" option turns this around without the need for waiting for the results of a costly and lengthy legal challenge.

 

When it comes to money, Housing Associations are always interested in new ideas and initiatives