Expired CCJ on Student Loan, Honours/SLC now threatening to take me back to court

[PointyFacedCat]

Hi all,

For those that haven't been following this, I'll briefly try to explain situation:

I have pre 1998 student loans.

I deferred for a year or two but then got ill (mental health) and even though I wasn't earning enough/anything at all I stopped deferring these loans.

For a while I got letters, but due to my illness I ignored them and even stopped opening post for a while.

I haven't heard anything about this for years and years.

I have never earned over the threshold to pay back Student Loans.

I am recovering but am not totally better and this whole thing is really not helping.

After hearing nothing for years I got a letter in July from Honours Student Loans saying they wanted the whole £5K.

I didn't know this until very recently but apparently The SLC did get a CCJ on me way back in 2001.

They've never tried to enforce this, I live at the same address as when I got the CCJ (moved back home for 10 months in 2008, but they have that address too - Honours started ringing my parents after they sent the letter to me here).

I decided to send Statute Barred letter to Honours, figured they might have trouble proving there was a CCJ as it's so old.

I also searched register of judgements, orders and fines and my credit file - there is no CCJ on there.

As the CCJ is over 6 years old, I thought that if they came back and said there is a CCJ, I could then send back a letter detailing:

Section 24 of the Limitations Act 1980....

(1) An action shall not be brought upon any judgment after the expiration of six years from the date on which the judgment became enforceable.

(2) No arrears of interest in respect of any judgment debt shall be recovered after the expiration of six years from the date on which the interest became due.

I would say that as the CCJ is over 6 years old and there's no extenuating circumstances as to why it hasn't been enforced then they'd have to go back to court to get permission to enforce, and it's highly unlikely they'll succeed.

I hadn't heard anything for a few weeks after I sent the SB letter, 

on Friday I got a letter from Drysdensfairfax Solicitors saying they're working for The Student Loans Company (not Honours Student Loans?!), that their client previously obtained a judgement against me, that I've got 7 days to pay (letters dated 8th August) and that I should send cheque made payable to Drysdensfairfax, otherwise "steps will be taken to enforce the judgement our client holds".

Then I got a letter from Northampton County Court, where the original CCJ was obtained by The SLC in 2001.

This was obtained by default - I didn't know anything about it.

There are no details at all - just the case number (which is right), the name of the claimant (The Student Loans Company) and the fact that it's being transferred to Bradford County Court for enforcement.

This is not my local court and I have never lived anywhere near Bradford.

Having just checked the Drysden letter, they're located in Bradford so this must be why it's been transferred there, but that's no good to me, I can't get to Bradford - would need it at my local court, I can defend myself.

I'm going to attach all correspondence so you can see it.

There's 4 PDFs (couldn't work out how to make a multipage PDF). See bottom of post.

I am confused as to why it is now suddenly The Student Loans Company chasing me again and not Honours Student Loans (I was under the impression from what it says on there website that they would have bought my student loan off the SLC).

It doesn't seem right somehow. Does anyone have any ideas on this? Does it actually matter?

I don't know what to do.

They seem to be determined to take me back to court on this.

There's no way I can pay full amount and would really struggle to pay instalments too unless they're incredibly small.

Should I write back quoting Section 24 of The Limitations Act? In which case who should I write to? Drysden, Honours or the SLC, or all 3?

Am seeing Citizens Advice on Thursday so am hoping they can help me, but would really appreciate comments and help here too. Thanks so much

PFC xx

1-first_letter_from_Honours_02_07_12.pdf First letter received from Honours student loans

2-Statue-Barred-Letter-to-Honours-Student-Loans.pdf My statute barred letter to Honours Student Loans

3-solicitors_letter_08_08_12.pdf Response from Drysdenfairfax solicitors

4-transfer_of_court_proceedings_10_08_12.pdf Letter from Northampton court, advising of change of court

[citizenB]

It is my understanding that as there has been no attempt to enforce this since 2001 !!! then they should not be allowed to do so now.

 

I am not quite sure what you should be doing to stop this, so will alert site team for you.

[Mike_hawk]

Hi pfc, found you.

 

Posting from work pooter so this will probably read as 1 block of text at the mo.

 

Personal opinion [which could be wrong], would be to file a single N244 application, supporting w/s & draft order combining the following; transfer to local court, suspension of enforcement and relief from sanctions to set aside the original default judgment.

 

There is a fee but check EX160 as you may be exempt http://hmctsformfinder.justice.gov.uk/HMCTS/GetForms.do?court_forms_num=ex160&court_forms_title=&court_forms_category=

 

The alternative would seem to be reliance on caselaw and apply to transfer/defend the current enforcement application. Can't seem to post links to Bailii from here, the 2 cases that come to mind are Patel v Singh [2002] EWCA Civ 1938 and Duer v Frazer [2001] 1 All ER 249

Edited August 15, 2012 by Mike_hawk
formatting :)

[PointyFacedCat]

Thanks CitizenB, any responses from the site team are always greatly appreciated.

Glad you found me Mike_hawk, will look into all that you have posted above.

Also - got another letter from Drysdenfairfax this morning.

It is actually exactly the same as the last letter (7 days to pay and informing me of change of solicitors) however with this one there's an extra page with official looking 'Notice of Change of Solicitors'.

Will scan up and post below.

Think they must have just forgot to enclose the notice with the 1st letter they sent(!), is good for me as now have 7 days from 13th to pay, even though I can't it pay it gives me a bit more time to plan what to do and respond.

Cheers guys, will be back soon no doubt!

PFC xxx

5-2nd_solicitors_letter_13_08_12.pdf Letter from Drysden, same as before, 7 days to pay, change of solicitors

6-notice_of_change_of_solicitors_13_08_12.pdf Notice of change of solicitors, received with letter

[citizenB]

Mike are these what you were trying to post up ??

http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWCA/Civ/2002/1938.html

http://www.maitlandchambers.com/Cases/Detail.asp?CaseID=389

Couldnt find a bailii reference to the one above - hopefully the one above might be useful

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?130870-7-year-old-CCJ-served-at-address-I-didn-t-live-at-catches-me-up.-What-can-I-do

See post 6 in thread linked above.

[Mike_hawk]

I'd be inclined to ring Northampton and ask them who applied to transfer for enforcement.......

if it was DF they had no right of audience to make any application in this matter.

http://www.justice.gov.uk/courts/procedure-rules/civil/rules/part42#IDAWSHCC

Cheers Cb, I'll post the Duer link to Bailii this evening

[AndyOrch]

Section 24 of the Limitations Act 1980....

 

(1) An action shall not be brought upon any judgment after the expiration of six years from the date on which the judgment became enforceable.

 

(2) No arrears of interest in respect of any judgment debt shall be recovered after the expiration of six years from the date on which the interest became due.

 

For this reason alone, CC judges would not normally allow enforcement.

 

Regards

 

Andy

[cerberusalert]

There is case law to suggest that 6 years is enough time for a claimant to enforce a judgment debt. In Patel v Singh [2002] EWCA Civ 1938 and Duer v Frazer [2001] 1 All ER 249 leave to enforce these debts were both refused.

 

The reason being is that it was held that the general rule is that the passing of six years is sufficient in itself and the court would not extend time unless their were exceptional circumstances and it is demonstrably just to do so. It would be for the creditor to argue the reasons for delay and argue why they should take the case out of the general rule.

[PointyFacedCat]

Hi all,

Thank you for all your help, am going through all links posted above.

PFC xx

Cannot believe I have been such a dinlo - the CCJ Claim numbers do not match!!!

I just glanced the Drysden paperwork and the first 2 letters are the same but the rest is different!

This has got to help surely?

However - the only paperwork I could find for the original CCJ is the claim form they send to you prior to the court hearing - this does have a claim number on it, but I could not find the actual judgement. (However in my partners case the number on the claim form and the actual judgement are the same).

Unless for some reason they didn't follow up on the original claim form in 2001 and got the CCJ later, but I don't see why they would do that. As mentioned my partners in exact same situation (almost) and they followed his up and got the judgement by default.

How can I find out the actual correct details? Should I ring Northampton?

Sorry to be such a ditz!

PFC xxx

[Mike_hawk]

That's a little odd, whats the prefix number before the 2 letters?

[PointyFacedCat]

Hi Mike,

 

It's XT

 

pcf x

 

No- I'm, at it again, there's no pre fix number. Just 2 letters and 6 numbers

 

pfc

[Mike_hawk]

I'd ring the court to check, thought all case numbers carried a year prefix on issue

[PointyFacedCat]

Ok, will do, will hope their records go back that far. Could check about who applied to transfer for enforcement at same time.

 

Format of CCJ claim number is like: AB 1 12345

 

thanks for your help today

 

pfc xx

[Mike_hawk]

It may just be an old rotation series of numbers or an archive number or just a typo...... anybodys guess at the mo. Tbh I rarely come across anything so aged

 

Let me know what they say, oh and be prepared for a long wait on the phone I understand they are having issues with dropped calls etc

[PointyFacedCat]

ok, thank you,

 

pfc x

[Mike_hawk]

It was bugging me so had to go and look it up

 

http://www.justice.gov.uk/courts/northampton-bulk-centre/claim-production-centre

 

5.5 Claim Numbers from the range allotted to the Centre User by the CPC Manager shall be assigned sequentially by the Centre User to any claims included on the data file sent for processing. Each claim number from the range shall be prefixed by a year identified e.g. 5 for 2005. At the beginning of a new calendar year the Centre User shall revert to the first number in the range for the succeeding years issue and change the year identity to reflect the new year.

[PointyFacedCat]

Hi,

 

Sorry I haven't posted for a while, I haven't been too well.

 

I did go to Citizens Advice over a week ago now and fortunately I qualify for free legal advice. I explained the situation and that I'd like to use section 24 of the limitations act to try and get them to stop taking any action against me and basically get the debt written off as it were.

 

Unfortunately they weren't really willing to give me any advice until they have more information on the whole situation. (As I don't have the original CCJ judgement and the claim numbers are different on the paperwork I do have and what I'm being sent now). (Apparently you can sue the CAB if they advise you wrong, so he wanted all the proper facts).

 

Basically he said they're going to write to Drysdens asking for more information.

 

He was amazed that I'd never had the bailiffs round and thought that possibly they were just trying to scare me into paying. He thought that maybe the claim numbers were different because some sort of further action has been taken at some point which resulted in a different claim number. (Although my view is that if they have done that, I don't know about it, so again it can't have been followed up, and as there's nothing on trustonline or my credit file it must still be over 6 years old, so again section 24 applies).

 

Anyway he said I'm to do nothing until we've had a response to his letter from Drysdens. I haven't had any further contact from Drysdens since the letter they send dated 13th August which requested full payment and included a notice of transfer of proceedings.

 

So that's how things stand at the moment. I'll update as soon as I get any more info.

 

PFC xx

Edited August 27, 2012 by PointyFacedCat

[citizenB]

This is some good news then PFC - I think CAB would be more likely to obtain information from Dryden as well, especially if they are made aware that you will now have legal representation.

 

Look forward to some updates when you can.

[PointyFacedCat]

Hi All,

Just thought I'd give you an update. As yet there has been no response at all from DrysdensFairfax to the CAB's request for more information sent just after my appointment on 16/08/12!!

I actually went back to the CAB a while ago (18/09/12) as the advisor I saw left and the lady taking over my case file wanted more information, so I went in to tell her all about it. I explained the situation to her and tried to explain about section 24 of the limitations act. She didn't know all that much about it so she wanted to do more research into it all.

She sent me a letter afterwards confirming all we discussed, the relevant bit is below:

"In England and Wales the general rule is that once a judgement has been entered there is no time limit within which to start enforcement proceedings. The exception to this rule is that a warrant of execution against goods cannot be issued more than six years after a judgement, without leave of the court. As we discussed this does not mean that the creditor can take no further action, they just need to apply to the courts for permission".

I don't think I explained things very well so am hoping that she does do more research. I know that they can go back to court requesting permission to enforce the CCJ but I was of the understanding that it's highly unlikely a judge would find in their favour due to Section 24 of the Limitations Act.

Also the paragraph above makes it sound like the only type of enforcement action they need to get permission for is a warrant of execution against goods and that any other type of enforcement doesn't require the courts permission? So am confused again!

We did an income and expenditure thing and she said that at present I could offer them £8 a month and that if we offered it officially from the CAB then they should accept this. Although we agreed not to go down this route at present.

She wasn't really sure where I was going with it all. She did say that if they do take me to court and I wanted to fight them using this sort of complicated legal defence/technicalities then the CAB probably wouldn't give me legal aid for this as I could just make an offer of payment and legal aid's not really for that sort of thing. I wasn't really sure what to do/say and I got a little upset.

She did say she would research it more and that she wasn't making any judgements and if SLC/Honours/Drysdens had done something wrong or if the law is on my side then CAB would help.

She was a very nice lady but it's just such an in-depth, specialised area and the CAB aren't lawyers.

I really wish I knew a solicitor that specialised in this sort of thing! Although I'm sure that having the CAB send letters on my behalf is helpful. And when I see her again she'll have done her research and I'm going to make sure I'm more prepared and better at explaining everything so hopefully we'll get there in the end.

She said that she was happy to write another letter to Drysdens requesting more info - like a copy of the CCJ, and, nearly 4 weeks later from this second letter there has still been no response.

I'm hoping that this is a good thing!

Sorry for such a waffley post! That's how things are at the moment!

PointyFacedCat xx

[Conniff]

If you really want correspondence from them with details, then send an SAR, they have to reply to that within 40 days but it costs a tenner.

Edited October 25, 2012 by Conniff

[id6052]

out of interest, was this resolved?

[WarrenBuffet]

Id like to know too, im also currently in a Mexican Stand Off with Link over a CCJ that they are unable to produce a Reference for.

[johno1066]

I too am in the same situation and they have ALSO claimed there was a CCJ made against me in 2001. This is quite frankly nonsense, I have never knowingly had a CCJ and I have checked with Equifax annually since 1999. SLC have no record of this either.

 

There appears to be a large number of people who have exactly the same letters, but are unaware of the CCJ claim being made against them. IF, there is a deliberate tactic to misrepresent the legal position, would such behaviour not be fraudulent?

[teed_off]

jusst an update really, I am still in a stand off with HSL and they are putting it on my credit file but all the info is wron c

[BRIGADIER2JCS]

jusst an update really, I am still in a stand off with HSL and they are putting it on my credit file but all the info is wron c

Start complaining.

 

 

First place a " notice of correction/dispute on each CRA entry for the debt.

 

 

Next a FORMAL COMPLAINT to HSL this requires a full investigation and response within 56 days.

 

 

Clearly and succinctly lay out all the elements of your complaint, then in the same manner lay out what you require them to do about the situation.

 

 

Use signed for post and check delivery date.

 

 

Then await " The Final Response" after which you can take this further if need be.