benefit suspended, no evidence or warning letter, help please? lost

[benefits7609]

hello fellow CAG forum members, I had my benefit suddenly cut recently [20th June 2012]. However, was unaware of this until at a cashpoint to buy groceries 2 weeks later, the first week of july. Seeing money not paid at first i was puzzled, but after returning home and making a call to the Benefit call centre I was told someone will call me back in 3 hours. On this 3 hour later call, I am told that my benefit was suspended , QUOTE: [because we think you and your friend are a couple] UNQUOTE I almost fell over with shock. I asked where was the evidence this decision was based on? The man at the other end went silent. I began to get warning bells.

[benefits7609]

something's not right here My room mate's money [ESA, 23 pounds a week] was also stopped on 20th June. It has now been about 7 weeks [just over 44 days] since I had any Income Support. Any attempt to contact Xxxxxxxxx Benefit office [where i had the call back from] gets through to the call centre [in Wales].

 

My room mate rang benefits today, was told the same thing: "your money has been stopped because we think you and your friend are a couple." When he challenged how this decision was made he was simply told it was the Decision Maker's decision, nothing more. A friend used to work in this field and has told us 'to cut the money of 2 people at the same property is illegal' [we do not know if this still rings true, confirmation of this would be good, if true].

 

We cannot feed ourselves, or our cat. Each day we are more desperate and we feel that each way we turn there is nothing but frustration. We used to deal with Belfast not so long ago and they were far more human in their approach. Now things are dealt with at East london it seems letters get lost left right and centre, and we feel like pawns in some big silly game. [i hope this is not true but just my frustrations as a claimant]

 

Recently on the phone a jobcentre staff [at my local branch] told me to claim for couple's benefit. I told her "I can't do that, it would be lying, as we are not a couple." The woman went silent. I suspected dishonesty. she tried repeatedly to convince me that this .. QUOTE : would not affect your claim UNQUOTE I disbelieved her and told her so. She offered to put something in the post to me as proof. Still disbelieving, I said yes ok. I have the woman on tape telling me to claim for a benefit I am not entitled to. I asked her at one point what evidence was used for the decision to stop my money. She replied something like QUOTE: we don't have it UNQUOTE

 

Now I'm no expert but don't you need evidence if you are going to stop somebody's money? I also told the person at the Benefit callback when he told me "we sent out a letter last week" [a week before first week of july by this point], "I did not receive a letter from your offices." After his insistence I asked for it to be sent again. He said sure. I have not received that letter.

 

Something smells fishy in all of this. No evidence produced. Assumption made that 2 people are a couple with no visit, interview or notice and something that offends both me and my flat mate, he was called in for a Compliance Interview on 1st May, asked his relationship status to me, they seemed satisfied with his honest answers then promptly re-instated his benefit. So why six weeks later are *Both* me and my friend targeted with suspended benefit? Repeatedly on phone calls we are told "we think you are a couple." But when we ask for evidence the other person falls silent each time.

 

Nothing has changed since we moved in to this apartment in 2005. At his Compliance Interview on 1st May the lady whom interviewed my friend said "i cannot understand why you were called in for interview if nothing has changed in your circumstances since you moved in 7 years ago."

 

The woman who told me to make a false claim, should I report her to relevant authorities for fraud [or encouraging fraud?] After all, if I made a claim for money I am not entitled to, that is fraud. I recorded the woman saying to make a claim for couples benefit and my reply that it would be lying. She seemed so insistent that it aroused my suspicions. Any help /advice would be great, please?

 

Thank you for reading my post. regards, benefit7609

Edited August 11, 2012 by antone
Added paragraphs and corrected formatting for ease of reading - content not changed

[abc123def]

I would go to the Citizens Advice Bureau as they can intercede on your behalf and get some answers. I would say they must have some evidence which leads them to believe that you are a couple, even if it is not verified. I was interested in your comment "We cannot feed ourselves, or our cat" - so you have some joint property for instance.

[benefits7609]

I would go to the Citizens Advice Bureau as they can intercede on your behalf and get some answers. I would say they must have some evidence which leads them to believe that you are a couple, even if it is not verified. I was interested in your comment "We cannot feed ourselves, or our cat" - so you have some joint property for instance.

 

sorry, the cat is mine. thanks for the CAB advice. i feel like i am being punished for a crime i haven't committed. i also suffer with mental health illness and that has not been helped by having no money and being persecuted by faceless persons who have not investigated me and my situation, just assumed something and bang! with no evidence .. this faceless Decision maker cut me off.

[estellyn]

Whats the set up? Do you have separate rooms? How do you both pay for rent and bills? What about buying food - do you have separate food cupboards and shelves? Do you eat together or separately? Do you have any joint bank accounts? All of these things and more are looked at in deciding if you are a couple. Unfortunately it seems sometimes the decision has little to do with reality and only about perception.

[SWLABR9]

I'd also ask, do you use the same bathroom, the same kitchen, same cooker, same garden etc? I'm aware the obvious answer is yes and I'd expect it to be. There seems to be a new emphasis lately on assuming that any two people of the opposite sex living under the same roof are a couple and the use of shared facilities is offered as proof of this. Obviously it isn't and it doesn't prove anything but it leaves the burden of proof with the claimants and of course it's impossible to actually do. Guilt is assumed on the part of the claimant just as illness is now regarded as being the fault of the claimant as opposed to lying with their medical team. It's an obvious extension of the government's philosophy of punishing claimants for being claimants. One wonders how people will deal with this nonsense at all next year in the complete absence of legal aid.

[abc123def]

Previously I separated from my ex and he left the home leaving me with the children and my fil who lived with us. Fil had had a stroke following heart surgery previously. I placed a claim for benefits for myself and the DWP decided I wasn't eligible as their 'system' decided I was a couple with my fil as he used the same washing machine and I cooked his meals as he ate as part of the family! I complained and fortunately someone at the first level senior to that decision saw the light early on and changed that. But it does show ..

[MIKEY DABODEE]

Before a claim can be suspended for LTHAW.

A form an LTF1 has to been completed by both people, then returned and a team leader looks at this form. It can then be decided no further action or a compliance visit.

 

During the visist another detailed form is completed, then this is ref to DM for a decision, LTHAW or not.

The two claims are then suspended, letters go out informing about the decision and suspension, they do this to prevent overpayment as they are being paid as single people, and one has to claim for the other, as they have been declared a couple by the DM

So one claim closes and the other claim gets the partner added to it.

 

OP you will have to appeal this decision you have one month. While you appeal you one can claim for the other but this will not effect the appeal. Lots of people appeal the decision and win....

Edited August 11, 2012 by MIKEY DABODEE

[benefits7609]

Whats the set up? Do you have separate rooms? How do you both pay for rent and bills? What about buying food - do you have separate food cupboards and shelves? Do you eat together or separately? Do you have any joint bank accounts? All of these things and more are looked at in deciding if you are a couple. Unfortunately it seems sometimes the decision has little to do with reality and only about perception.

 

hello, thank you for reply. None of those questions were asked, no investigation was made involving asking me anything! it was just Bang! cut money six weeks after my friend went for compliance interview and it seemed they were happy with his replies at interview because his money was re-instated thereafter. The lady even told him "I don't know why you were even called in." She was confused. I just don't get it.

[benefits7609]

Before a claim can be suspended for LTHAW.

A form an LTF1 has to been completed by both people, then returned and a team leader looks at this form. It can then be decided no further action or a compliance visit.

 

During the visist another detailed form is completed, then this is ref to DM for a decision, LTHAW or not.

The two claims are then suspended, letters go out informing about the decision and suspension, they do this to prevent overpayment as they are being paid as single people, and one has to claim for the other, as they have been declared a couple by the DM

So one claim closes and the other claim gets the partner added to it.

 

OP you will have to appeal this decision you have one month. While you appeal you one can claim for the other but this will not effect the appeal. Lots of people appeal the decision and win....

 

This procedure did not happen. No visit. Nobody asked me to fill out that form. Should I make official complaint? *I can not claim as a couple because I am not in a relationship. I will not lie. That would be fraud.* I do not believe the words [it will not affect your claim] I am not entitled to couples allowance because i am not in a relationship so why should I make a false claim? I have appealed in writing. It has been received. I sent it recorded signed for. paid 1.55. Benefits would not accept a couple claiming as singles so why accept a single claiming as a couple? Surely the law goes both ways?

[SWLABR9]

You should certainly advise your MP and ask for their assistance.

[benefits7609]

I'd also ask, do you use the same bathroom, the same kitchen, same cooker, same garden etc? I'm aware the obvious answer is yes and I'd expect it to be. There seems to be a new emphasis lately on assuming that any two people of the opposite sex living under the same roof are a couple and the use of shared facilities is offered as proof of this. Obviously it isn't and it doesn't prove anything but it leaves the burden of proof with the claimants and of course it's impossible to actually do. Guilt is assumed on the part of the claimant just as illness is now regarded as being the fault of the claimant as opposed to lying with their medical team. It's an obvious extension of the government's philosophy of punishing claimants for being claimants. One wonders how people will deal with this nonsense at all next year in the complete absence of legal aid.

 

Thank you for your reply, very interesting. I was chilled by this part of your post but thank you for posting, it is helpful to know another's viewpoint and that one is not crazy for feeling punished for absolutely nothing: it leaves the burden of proof with the claimants and of course it's impossible to actually do. Guilt is assumed on the part of the claimant just as illness is now regarded as being the fault of the claimant as opposed to lying with their medical team. It's an obvious extension of the government's philosophy of punishing claimants for being claimants. I notice you say next year the complete absence of legal aid. Can you elaborate please? I never knew it was being abolished. How will the little man/woman in the street get legal advice in its absence? Please share what you know? Thank you everyone for your replies, if anyone has anything to add, please do. It's very helpful to know I am not alone in being scapegoated.

[benefits7609]

You should certainly advise your MP and ask for their assistance.

 

I have already done so, but thank you I have also, just this week taken the matter up with Iain Duncan Smith's Secretary, who has forwarded my email to DWP for response. I just want to know what they base this decision on. This property has 2 bedrooms, we do our own thing, and it feels like somebody has plucked these 2 claims out for a battering. Searched at youtube yesterday for a little info on job centre fraud and found a worrying video by a whistleblower at a jobcentre plus [identity hidden, voice distorted] who was telling how they HAD to suspend 3 claims a week and pick on the most vulnerable claimants to do so. Of course the bosses, when interviewed about the allegations made denied it to the hilt, but you've got to wonder WHY this goes on, if changes are sought by government? One poor lad had been six months! with no money. They interviewed him. Sad sorry mess.

[SWLABR9]

It's no secret. Funding for legal aid for anything to do with benefits is being withdrawn after April. Also, any kind of appeal will be blocked. Claimants will first have to apply for a reconsideration of any disputed decision from the DWP, it'll go to another decision maker for re-examination. There's no time limit for how long that reconsideration can take which effectively nobbles the entire appeal system. The disabled, while they're waiting for a reconsideration on any decision to remove their sick benefits, won't be able to claim sick pay at the assessment rate as they can now. They'll be told to claim JSA which of course being ill many won't be able to do. No benefits then if you appeal and appeals will be blocked so they won't happen anyway. I'm not sure how far this will apply to other claims, claims like yours for instance. I know the reconsideration applies, you have to wait for a reconsideration before you'll be able to appeal (so realistically there won't be any appeals), but I don't know what benefits you'll be allowed to claim while you're waiting for your reconsideration. It sounds like a pair of people in your position would have to claim as a couple, no matter how inappropriate that may be, in order to get any income at all. I believe I'm right in saying that you'd get less as a couple than you would as two individuals, is that true?

[SWLABR9]

There's some info about the new system here http://www.theyworkforyou.com/pbc/2010-11/Welfare_Reform_Bill/22-0_2011-05-17a.6.0 note how Grayling dodges the tricky question about what caimants are supposed tolive on while they're waiting for their reconsideration to happen sothey can finally appeal. If the reconsideration does happen, I should point out, then sick people will be eligible for ESA, sick benefits, at the assessment rate till their appeal. It's while they're waiting for the reconsideration that's the tricky bit, they can take six to eight months easily.

Shocking, isn't it?

[benefits7609]

It's no secret. Funding for legal aid for anything to do with benefits is being withdrawn after April. Also, any kind of appeal will be blocked. Claimants will first have to apply for a reconsideration of any disputed decision from the DWP, it'll go to another decision maker for re-examination. There's no time limit for how long that reconsideration can take which effectively nobbles the entire appeal system. The disabled, while they're waiting for a reconsideration on any decision to remove their sick benefits, won't be able to claim sick pay at the assessment rate as they can now. They'll be told to claim JSA which of course being ill many won't be able to do. No benefits then if you appeal and appeals will be blocked so they won't happen anyway. I'm not sure how far this will apply to other claims, claims like yours for instance. I know the reconsideration applies, you have to wait for a reconsideration before you'll be able to appeal (so realistically there won't be any appeals), but I don't know what benefits you'll be allowed to claim while you're waiting for your reconsideration. It sounds like a pair of people in your position would have to claim as a couple, no matter how inappropriate that may be, in order to get any income at all. I believe I'm right in saying that you'd get less as a couple than you would as two individuals, is that true?

 

I am not going to make a false claim. This is what I am already being accused of. However well meaning your advice, once the benefits system sees 2 people on a couples allowance they will assume their ASSUMPTION was correct all along and will NOT shift them on to single people's allowance. Besides, for the period that those two people are on COUPLES allowance they will not get single entitlement that they are entitled to. My gut tells me not to go there under any circumstances.

[SWLABR9]

OK.

[abc123def]

Benefits, if you do get called in for an interview I would watch your wording carefully. Apart from the cat quote, in post two you refer to the other person as your room mate which implies you share a bedroom which while I would agree does not necessarily mean you are a couple might be difficult to prove otherwise. But since then you have said the property has two bedrooms so I assume you are not room mates but are flat/house mates and if so I would call yourself that and not room mates. I do wonder if your wording to other people has led someone to believe you are more than flat/house sharing and maybe someone has made an anonymous tip off to the DWP?

[MIKEY DABODEE]

This procedure did not happen. No visit. Nobody asked me to fill out that form. Should I make official complaint? *I can not claim as a couple because I am not in a relationship. I will not lie. That would be fraud.* I do not believe the words [it will not affect your claim] I am not entitled to couples allowance because i am not in a relationship so why should I make a false claim? I have appealed in writing. It has been received. I sent it recorded signed for. paid 1.55. Benefits would not accept a couple claiming as singles so why accept a single claiming as a couple? Surely the law goes both ways?

 

The only think I can think of is that I.S were not aware that you were sharing your address..

JSA have become aware of it, your flat mate must have filled the form, compliance interview and the DM decision and JSA have informed I.S that your flatmate has been found LTHAW with you...

But a suspense letter should have been sent to you, your benefit shouldnt have just stopped.

You have appealed good, but I am just conscerned to how you are going to live. Your HB etc will also now be suspended, and as a cat lover myself...

So I suggested claim as a coiple then, it will not effect your appeal, I see it often, You will have to anyway as they will not let you claim single now untill they have looked at your appeal,

and if you dont win you will have to claim as a couple.

I am not saying you are a couple, but they have maded their decision.......

[estellyn]

There's some info about the new system here http://www.theyworkforyou.com/pbc/2010-11/Welfare_Reform_Bill/22-0_2011-05-17a.6.0 note how Grayling dodges the tricky question about what caimants are supposed tolive on while they're waiting for their reconsideration to happen sothey can finally appeal. If the reconsideration does happen, I should point out, then sick people will be eligible for ESA, sick benefits, at the assessment rate till their appeal. It's while they're waiting for the reconsideration that's the tricky bit, they can take six to eight months easily.

Shocking, isn't it?

 

Thanks for the link - I read it and the premise for this clause 99 is a load of rubbish. Appeals are automatically reconsidered prior to the appeal being sent to Tribunal. The change needs to be not with what the process of challenging decisions is, but what the response of the DWP is. If the DWP had a better system in place for assisting people at the reconsideration stage, and advising them what sort of additional evidence might be helpful, then many cases might not get to Tribunal. Surely it would be cheaper to have dedicated appeal liaisons who meet with people challenging decisions, go through the case, advise of what additional evidence would be required and give a time period in which to return it. Hey, even better, what if ATOS assessors were trained in advising and assessing what additional information might be available and advising the claimant at assessment what needs to be sent to the DWP. What if instead of sending out a really stupid form (esa50), the questions in the form were part of the assessment, and assessors were trained in who to get the right information from the claimant (like an appeals rep does in a 1 hour meeting). But no - these things would cause too many people to be awarded benefit, can't have that!

[estellyn]

The only think I can think of is that I.S were not aware that you were sharing your address..

JSA have become aware of it, your flat mate must have filled the form, compliance interview and the DM decision and JSA have informed I.S that your flatmate has been found LTHAW with you...

But a suspense letter should have been sent to you, your benefit shouldnt have just stopped.

You have appealed good, but I am just conscerned to how you are going to live. Your HB etc will also now be suspended, and as a cat lover myself...

So I suggested claim as a coiple then, it will not effect your appeal, I see it often, You will have to anyway as they will not let you claim single now untill they have looked at your appeal,

and if you dont win you will have to claim as a couple.

I am not saying you are a couple, but they have maded their decision.......

 

But the house mate is receiving benefits as a single person. There is little incentive for him/her to agree to a joint claim.

[MIKEY DABODEE]

housemate on ESA, not JSA just reread sorry, and OP states their benefit has been stopped as well

Which in this case is correct as they both will be now suspended

They were both receiving benefits as single people but now found LTHAW .

One wll have to now claim for the other as the Department will not pay them as single now unless they win the appeal.

Best bet is for OP to claim for housemate as she will get couple DP on I.S as well

Also HB will stop whilst its sorted out

[estellyn]

housemate on ESA, not JSA just reread sorry, and OP states their benefit has been stopped as well

Which in this case is correct as they both will be now suspended

They were both receiving benefits as single people but now found LTHAW .

One wll have to now claim for the other as the Department will not pay them as single now unless they win the appeal.

Best bet is for OP to claim for housemate as she will get couple DP on I.S as well

Also HB will stop whilst its sorted out

 

See post #9, the OP states that although housemate's benefits were initially stopped, they were then reinstated.

 

ETA Though I agree is it confusing as in post #2 the OP states that housemate's benefits were still suspended that day - maybe OP can clarify.

[MIKEY DABODEE]

See post #9, the OP states that although housemate's benefits were initially stopped, they were then reinstated.

 

ETA Though I agree is it confusing as in post #2 the OP states that housemate's benefits were still suspended that day - maybe OP can clarify.

 

If the flat mates benefit is back in payment then something is not right as they shouldnt be paid as single people as this will result in an OP.

One of them has to decide now who will claim for the other. Until its sorted out one way or the other

Unless one moves out of the address.

 

Too add though if the OP and Flatmate have shared an address for seven years then its strange a LTHAW has not been done prior.

I know its common practice for friends to share but any living together is always investigated and a decison made usually at the start of a claim, and it is reviewed every six months or so.

 

From what date OP have they decided you have been found Living Together?

Edited August 11, 2012 by MIKEY DABODEE

[benefits7609]

Benefits, if you do get called in for an interview I would watch your wording carefully. Apart from the cat quote, in post two you refer to the other person as your room mate which implies you share a bedroom which while I would agree does not necessarily mean you are a couple might be difficult to prove otherwise. But since then you have said the property has two bedrooms so I assume you are not room mates but are flat/house mates and if so I would call yourself that and not room mates. I do wonder if your wording to other people has led someone to believe you are more than flat/house sharing and maybe someone has made an anonymous tip off to the DWP?

 

Hi yes we are flat mates and yes the property has 2 bedrooms. Thank you for your reply with sound advice. [i worry that i might prefer to have counsel with me to give legal advice at a interview , if this is allowed? I talk to a lot of American pals and I think picked up their vocabulary by accident [they say room mate all the time, referring to girl chums ] which may have led to this misunderstanding. Likely someone has got the wrong end of the stick and as you suggest may have phoned the DWP but on this occasion a possible allegation taken at face value has led to this mistake on my claim [as I have not been interviewed to ascertain facts, and I thought having ones facts straight before accusations was mandatory?].