Bristow & Sutor - my debt but "Seized" my husbands car

[backofbeyond]

Just returned from holiday to find a hand delivered envelope on my doorstep. Inside was a "notice of seizure of goods & inventory", on the inventory is details of my husbands car (an old banger worth nothing). The "debt" is in my name. Obviously no-one was in so nothing is signed. Just wondered where I stand and what I should do next?

 

The debt is from a parking fine from a council (i didn't own the car at the time and I am in arguement with DVLA about this). Parking charge was £112 and bailiffs fees are stated as £221.38 totalling £333.38 owed.

 

Any advice?

[old bill]

If the PCN relates to a previous owner of the car, both the local authority involved and B & S are acting illegally. It sounds very much that you need to file an Out of Time Statutory Declaration with the Northampton TEC and get this action quashed.

 

Which local authority is involved, please?l

[BRIGADIER2JCS]

Hi,If you did not own the car who was the driver at the time the ticket was issued.

[backofbeyond]

I owned the car and sold it on (sending off the V5 to DVLA). The parking ticket was issued by Warwick District Council (i'm in Yorkshire and never been to warwickshire lol) about a month after selling it. I received a letter advising of the parking charge and wrote to the council, they told me i had to take it up with the DVLA which I have been playing letter tennis with them over it.

[BRIGADIER2JCS]

You must make a formal complaint to a senior officer at the DVLA,

then they will be required to reply.

[backofbeyond]

You must make a formal complaint to a senior officer at the DVLA,

then they will be required to reply.

 

What should I do in the meantime? This notice of seizure was dated 24 July, I only came back from holiday earlier hours of Saturday morning. How do I stand with the bailiffs? The inventory wasn't signed and it is for a car that is not in my name.

[BRIGADIER2JCS]

Have got the transfer details from selling the car?

 

Type up a statement detailing the times dates of all that has occured,

date of sale, date notified to DVLA date of alleged offence, statement

of ownership of car the bailiff has levied upon, and hand it to the bailiff,

get a copy sent to his office asap tomorrow.

[backofbeyond]

Have got the transfer details from selling the car?

 

Type up a statement detailing the times dates of all that has occured,

date of sale, date notified to DVLA date of alleged offence, statement

of ownership of car the bailiff has levied upon, and hand it to the bailiff,

get a copy sent to his office asap tomorrow.

 

I don't have the details of the person I sold it to as we just filled in the V5 and I posted it off. Never even gave it a second thought until this parking fine came through the door! All I can remember was the bloke drove up from Leamington Spa. The DVLA know this as they are trying to do me for failure to notify change of keeper (as the new person obviously chased the logbook).

 

I shall write to the DVLA again (senior officer) and also do as you advised about the bailiffs but just interested to know where the law stands as it is not my car. I would like to know the law so if he does turn up (i am conscious of fact its been nearly 2 wks) he can't try and bamboozle me with fake law lol.

[old bill]

You need to write to -

 

Simon Tse

CEO

Driver & Vehicle Licensing Agency

Longview Road

Swansea

SA6 7JL

 

You might also want to send a copy of the letter and the fact that his staff are behaving like complete and total muppets to Simon Tse's boss -

 

Rt Hon Justine Greening MP

Secretary of State for Transport

Great Minster House,

33, Horseferry Road,

London

SW1P 4DR

 

Send it by Special Delivery Next Day Guaranteed. Be aware that DVLA do lose and mislay mail at DVLA.

 

As for DVLA trying to do you for failing to notify change of ownership, once you have put it in the post box, you have satisfied your obligation in law by posting the notification to them. If DVLA say you didn't notify them, let them prove it.

[BRIGADIER2JCS]

Did you receive confirmation that the vehicle was no longer

registered in your name?

[lamma]

Do you have a copy of Bill of Sale for the car ? Signed and dated hopefully.

[backofbeyond]

Did you receive confirmation that the vehicle was no longer

registered in your name?

 

Nope. Just posted it and presumed that was that (oh how wrong was i lol). Didn't send it recorded delivery, just 1st class.

[backofbeyond]

Do you have a copy of Bill of Sale for the car ? Signed and dated hopefully.

 

Nope. Just sold the car, filled in the V5 and sent it off.

[old bill]

Once the V5 or part thereof enters the postal system, the OP is deemed to have satisfied their obligation to notify the DVLA. Either Royal Mail have lost the V5 within their system or DVLA have mislaid or lost it at their end. Sending out documents making unsubstantiated allegations to vehicle owners, by DVLA, is beginning to get a little too frequent and the antics of DVLA prosecutors in trying to obtain details of vehicle owners' defences prior to court hearings is becoming a regular occurrence. The OP needs to write to Simon Tse and Justine Greening. Something very wrong is going on and I suspect fault lies with DVLA. In the meantime, the OP needs to appraise Warwick Council of what has happened and if correct procedures have not been followed, this needs to be chased up - quickly. B & S need to be told that there is a legal anomaly and to cease any enforcement action. Knowing them, they will simply ignore that, but as long as they are made aware, by way of Signed For letter, they cannot then claim later they did not know.

[unclebulgaria67]

"If you have a registration certificate you must complete section 6 'new keeper or new name/new address details' of the V5C. Both you and the buyer must sign section 8 and send the V5C immediately to DVLA, Swansea, SA99 1BA. You must also give the buyer the properly completed V5C/2 section."

 

This is what the direct.gov site says. The buyer will have something to confirm they bought the car.

 

In this situation, is there a way that you can find out who the new owner was. Will the Police help ? Will DVLA write to the new owner and ask them to confirm when they bought the car ? If neither the Police or DVLA are willing to help, I wonder whether the TEC are willing to write to the new owner, as they can surely find out the new owners details. Or do you have to apply to the court to get an order for DVLA to reveal the new owners details, so you can sort this out.

[old bill]

The police are not permitted to provide members of the public with information from the PNC. It is illegal for them to do so.

 

As legal proceedings are involved, the OP could make a request under Section 35, Data Protection Act 1998, for details of who the new owner is and, also, all information DVLA hold on the OP. The only other way is serving a court order on DVLA and a further order on Warwick Council and B & S, restraining them until this mess is sorted out. Whatever, DVLA are the cause of this, not the OP.

[Jamberson]

This is where you stand:

 

1. The registered keeper at DVLA is not equivalent to the owner. Whether you did or did not send off to DVLA, or whether you do it now, has no direct bearing on the ownership issue. The person liable for the PCN is the person who the council believed was the owner at the time.

 

2. Unless you can prove that you sold the car, which I understand you cannot, then you will not be able to absolve yourself that way.

 

3. In any respect, now is not the time to be contesting ownership. You have a warrant against you and the best you can do at present is challenge that warrant, if you have grounds. Challenging the warrant is not quite the same as arguing that it shouldn't have been issued in the first place, had the council known all the facts at the time.

 

4. The bailiff will not accept that the property of a husband is not also the property of the wife (unless you are living separately), so that also is not a way forward in terms of getting the levy overturned.

 

5. Your only recourse is to make an out of time statutory decalartion - if you have grounds for it being out if time. If you are liable for the warrant, then the council must have written to you several times before, at which stage you could have contested liability. Did you receive any of that corespondence - if not, do you know why that might have been (eg, have you moved house)?

[backofbeyond]

Hi Jamberson, yes I did receive correspondence from the council and I responded. I was told that they would pursue me until the DVLA told them otherwise hence why I concentrated on DVLA (which I have been getting nowhere fast!).

 

So what you are saying is that if the bailiff turns up today he can take my husbands car despite me not being in and not signing any of the paperwork he posted through the door? It's a shame it wasn't my neighbours car outside the house lol

 

With regards to the Out of Time Statutory Declaration, can I not simply state that I have been dealing with the DVLA? The council will know I am not lying as I have spoken and written to them about it on numerous occassions. How much does it cost?

[old bill]

A PCN is issued against the driver of a vehicle at the time of an alleged offence, not the owner/keeper. If DVLA have cocked-up, which is not beyond the realms of probability, in fact, I would say it is probably what has happened in this case, then they need to confirm to the OP the information they need to resolve the matter. If the OP did not commit the offence, there is an anomaly that they could make an OOT declaration, although there is nothing to be lost by doing so. They certainly need to tell Northampton TEC that they had sold the car prior to the date of the alleged offence. Also, the OP has not posted up whether they have received any correspondence from Warwick Council prior to B & S blundering onto the scene.

[old bill]

Hi Jamberson, yes I did receive correspondence from the council and I responded. I was told that they would pursue me until the DVLA told them otherwise hence why I concentrated on DVLA (which I have been getting nowhere fast!).

 

So what you are saying is that if the bailiff turns up today he can take my husbands car despite me not being in and not signing any of the paperwork he posted through the door? It's a shame it wasn't my neighbours car outside the house lol

 

With regards to the Out of Time Statutory Declaration, can I not simply state that I have been dealing with the DVLA? The council will know I am not lying as I have spoken and written to them about it on numerous occassions. How much does it cost?

 

If Warwick Council are sticking their fingers in their ears and singing "La-la, we're not listening," they want to start listening and fast. If you have told them, in writing, that there is an anomaly regarding updating of vehicle owner/keeper data at DVLA and are pursuing this with DVLA, they should not be instructing bailiffs. It takes 7-14 days for a vehicle record to be updated by DVLA, depending on the level of work they have when your V5C arrives at Longview Road in Swansea. They have admitted, in FOI disclosures, that post does go missing after being received at DVLA. My gut-feeling is that Warwick Council and B & S are engaged in Irregular Levy at the very least. I feel that your best course of action is to warn Warwick Council and B & S they will be legally-restrained if they continue to pursue you whilst you sort out what has happened with DVLA. I also feel that you need to seek legal advice from your local Law Centre or Community Legal Service office, both of which provide free or very low-cost legal advice.

[Jamberson]

A PCN is issued against the driver of a vehicle at the time of an alleged offence, not the owner/keeper.

 

Rubbish. There is no one driving a parked car. It is issued against the vehicle and the person the council believes to be the owner is liable.

Edited August 6, 2012 by Jamberson

[Jamberson]

I did receive correspondence from the council and I responded. I was told that they would pursue me until the DVLA told them otherwise hence why I concentrated on DVLA (which I have been getting nowhere fast!).

 

In that case, I am afraid to say that the council will certainly reason that you were aware of the PCN before the warrant was issued, as they will have incoming correspondence and records of any phone calls etc from you.

 

You should have been issued with a Notice to Owner which you can challenge on one of several grounds - one of them being that you were not the owner of the vehicle. Did you receive this document and contest it on that basis? What did they come back with?

 

So what you are saying is that if the bailiff turns up today he can take my husbands car despite me not being in and not signing any of the paperwork he posted through the door?

 

Yes. You don't need to sign anything for them to have the power to take your (joint) property.

 

With regards to the Out of Time Statutory Declaration, can I not simply state that I have been dealing with the DVLA? The council will know I am not lying as I have spoken and written to them about it on numerous occassions. How much does it cost?

 

If you were to file one, you would have to file on one of four specific grounds, and being in correspondence with DVLA is not one of them. Because any statutory declaration would be out of time now, then the council can and usually will refuse it, especially if they have been in dialogue with you about this before.

 

You still may have a chance, albeit small, but can you recall which documents you actually did receive from the council, and which you replied to?

[old bill]

Rubbish. There is no one driving a parked car. It is issued against the vehicle and the person the council believes to be the owner is liable.

 

With the exception of construction and use offences, which can be pursued against the owner/keeper and driver in certain cases, a motoring offence, which includes parking offences, is pursued against the driver, not the registered owner/keeper, who was driving/in charge of the vehicle at the time of the alleged offence. The local authority in this case are behaving like idiots.

 

I don't know where you have got hold of the idea that the registered owner/keeper is responsible for motoring offences because the reality is completely different.

[BRIGADIER2JCS]

I agree totally pcn is against the driver of the vehicle at the time the offence was committed.

[unclebulgaria67]

I agree totally pcn is against the driver of the vehicle at the time the offence was committed.

 

This is correct. In regard to a parked car, it is the last person who had control of the car I.E the driver.

 

However, I do believe in the legislation, where it is not possible to find out who the driver was, they can issue the PCN against the registered keeper and they will need to respond to the PCN to confirm who was driving. In this case, I believe the car had been sold and they don't know the name of the person they sold it to. If this is the case, they may be required to pay the PCN, because they don't have the info. And we all thought you were innoncent until proven guilty and not the other way around.