Driving with inadequate insurance

[I-Spy]

Need some advice on an Insurance issue guys. My son was stopped for a routine breath test which he passed no problem, he was driving a friends car, he has his own fully comp insurance for his own vehicle which is part of a multi car family policy we have.

However on subsequently checking the small print it appears he was not insured to drive 3rd party on another vehicle, despite the insurer verbally telling us this was ok. As he is still in his 2 year probtion period I am assuming he will get 6 points for this misdemeanor and therefore automatically have his licence revoked??

Anyone got any ideas on how he might avoid this.

[sailor sam]

Insurance is a strict liability offence i'm afraid. You're either covered or your not its as simple and black and white as that. It is the driver's responsibility to check whether he is covered. If your policy states it does not allow for driving TP vehicles (owned by someone else), there is not a lot you can do.

 

If you were verbally told by your insurer that he was covered, I would be making a strong complaint about whoever that person was and to see if there is anyway they will come to your son's defence.

 

Please Note

 

The advice I offer will be based on the information given by the person needing it. All my advice is based on my experiences and knowledge gained in working in the motor and passenger transport industries in various capacities. Although my advice will always be sincere, it should be used as guidence only.

 

I would always urge to seek face to face professional advice for clarification prior to taking any action.

 

Please click my reputation 'star' button at the bottom of my profile window on the left if you found my advice useful.

[I-Spy]

Thanks for the swift reply Sailor Sam. I'm of the same opinion, its unfortunate that this will happen on a technical offence rather than the speeding/drink driving the the probation act was meant to combat. We can try talking to Admiral but i'm not holding my breath on this.

If he re-takes his licence I assume this means he starts with a clean slate?

[sailor sam]

Oh it's Admiral again! I bet that they conveniently forgot to record the telephone call where you were advised it was ok! I suggest you ask the question! In relation to your licence question, i'm not sure about that but if you can get Admiral to do their bit by admitting this was bought about by their mistake, it may not come to that.

 

Please Note

 

The advice I offer will be based on the information given by the person needing it. All my advice is based on my experiences and knowledge gained in working in the motor and passenger transport industries in various capacities. Although my advice will always be sincere, it should be used as guidence only.

 

I would always urge to seek face to face professional advice for clarification prior to taking any action.

 

Please click my reputation 'star' button at the bottom of my profile window on the left if you found my advice useful.

[crem]

If he re-takes his licence I assume this means he starts with a clean slate?

 

No he doesn't. The 6 points (if that's what he gets for the offence) will still be on his licence after he retakes his tests (remember he has to do the theory and pratical again) for the "normal" length of time they would be on anyone's licence, usually 4 years.

 

The "clock" on his 2 years probationary period isn't restarted however, so provided he gets to the 2 years from first passing his test then he cannot be revoked again even if he receives other penalty points.

Edited August 5, 2012 by crem

[I-Spy]

Yes we had 3 attempts at getting the policies correct in the first place ie paperwork not matching agreed insurance cover....perhaps that should have sounded alarm bells! I'll post an update once we know how this pans out.

[Conniff]

I wouldn't mention anything to Admiral, I would just SAR them stating specifically that transcripts of all phone conversations were required.

[I-Spy]

No he doesn't. The 6 points (if that's what he gets for the offence) will still be on his licence after he retakes his tests (remember he has to do the theory and pratical again) for the "normal" length of time they would be on anyone's licence, usually 4 years.

 

The "clock" on his 2 years probationary period isn't restarted however, so provided he gets to the 2 years from first passing his test then he cannot be revoked again even if he receives other penalty points.

 

Thx Crem, just read up on this, seems strange that they carry over but as you say the probation period ends and he's in with the rest of us!

[I-Spy]

I wouldn't mention anything to Admiral, I would just SAR them stating specifically that transcripts of all phone conversations were required.

 

Thx Conniff....I think this may be worth while as we are absolutely positive that the sales rep mentioned the TP cover for all named individuals as a benefit for the Admiral policies. How that may impinge on any proceedings I'm not sure as ultimately we are all directly liable, conjoining somebody else to blame is in my experience always difficult.

[crem]

Thx Crem, just read up on this, seems strange that they carry over but as you say the probation period ends and he's in with the rest of us!

 

 

Oh there are far more complicated anomilies about this "revoke" law than that. This is a straight forward situation really.

 

For example, someone can come in from France having driven only 6 months, "surrender" their French licence in exchange for a UK licence without taking a test. They could then get 6 points straight away but not loose their licence because the probationary period is only measured from the 1st UK test , which they didn't have to take.

 

Someone else comes from France having driven for 20 years and exchanges his licence also. He then drives in the UK for another 5 years with no problem, but then decides he'd like to ride a motorbike. He then takes and passes his bike test, but 6 months later gets 2 speeding fines and receives 6 penalty points. He now has his licence revoked because he has accumalated 6points within 2 years of passing his 1st UK test dispite having 25years of driving experience now!

[afcwben]

I always thoought having full comp insurance does not always give you the right to drive another persons car 3rd party even if the owner gives permission

[vax2002]

Pulling up the insurance company is just wasting time and effort.

Insurance is by way of "bond" you are issued a certificate of that bond and only what is written upon that certificate is valid.

You are deemed to have inspected and accepted the conditions printed on the certificate, it can not be retrospectively corrected based upon "but they said"

The court will take a plea, you have two choices, guilty or not guilty, if you choose not guilty the clerk of the court will request you produce the bonded certificate of insurance.

You either have one or you don't.

If you don't and have pleaded not guilty, the Magistrates will add a loading to the punishment.

IMO : You will receive 8 points and a £450 fine plus full costs for pleading not guilty and been found so .

This offence is absolute liability for private motorists.

If you have third party cover it will be written upon your certificate as so.

No certificate = guilty.

End of story.

[I-Spy]

UPDATE:

So Admiral have pushed to the absolute last day of the statutory SAR period and then wrote to us saying that because of an admin error the application had not been processed and that we now need to fill in some paper work in order to 'access' this. Funny that.

[Nimrod205]

Oh there are far more complicated anomilies about this "revoke" law than that. This is a straight forward situation really.

 

For example, someone can come in from France having driven only 6 months, "surrender" their French licence in exchange for a UK licence without taking a test. They could then get 6 points straight away but not loose their licence because the probationary period is only measured from the 1st UK test , which they didn't have to take.

 

Someone else comes from France having driven for 20 years and exchanges his licence also. He then drives in the UK for another 5 years with no problem, but then decides he'd like to ride a motorbike. He then takes and passes his bike test, but 6 months later gets 2 speeding fines and receives 6 penalty points. He now has his licence revoked because he has accumalated 6points within 2 years of passing his 1st UK test dispite having 25years of driving experience now!

 

Sorry, but this is not correct. The New Drivers Act (1995) clearly states the following:

 

(1)For the purposes of this Act, a person’s probationary period is, subject to section 7, the period of two years beginning with the day on which he becomes a qualified driver.

(2)For the purposes of this Act, a person becomes a qualified driver on the first occasion on which he passes—

(a)any test of competence to drive mentioned in paragraph (a) or © of section 89(1) of the M1Road Traffic Act 1988;

(b)any test of competence to drive conducted under the law of another EEA State

 

My bold and highlighting.

[SillyOldFool]

I hate to burst the bubble of hope here, but the certificate was issued AFTER the telephone call, albeit immediately. The telephone call could constitute a verbal contract HOWEVER the certificate issued after that verbal contract would in law supersede it.

 

There are circumstances where uninsured at the time can be rectified, for example insurance is cancelled due to not paying DD, driver stopped, car siezed etc etc which turns out to be incorrect as DD was paid, so insurance is reinstated and backdated to cover that period, thus making the driver insured after all and thus no fine, points or recovery of vehicle costs.

 

In this case, you could (with the taped call details) argue that you were insured perhaps before you received the certificate, but not once you received it as (and I know you know this now) you MUST read it and make sure all the details are correct and to your satisfaction. Yes, all 4 pages in font size 5, blue ink on blue background stuff, down there in section 91a clause 5R, paragraph 26c...........

 

In my opinion, your son is uninsured and unfortunately this will likely end with a £200 fine, 6 points and now the bad news....... as far as insurers are concerned, he may as well be a joyrider. He is young, drove (innocently in a way) uninsured, end of. Wrongly in my opinion I must add. However, it will prove a very expensive mistake.

 

Your only hope would be IF you can get that tape and then persuade the insurer that their agent did verbally tell you that you would all be covered and they then agree to change the policy in retrospect. Whilst not impossible, I would think it highly, highly unlikely that they will do do.