Jump to content


  • Tweets

  • Posts

    • Amex as with any creditor must help you the FOS should go with you and make them remove all interest charged from the very 1st time of asking for help. the FCA regulations actually almost dictate it, they most certainly clearly state that if the are FCA registered they must help.   it's very telling they have no marked your credit file....almost as if they know they are wrong. it's also telling that an irresponsible lending complaint might well be in order hear too, they can just keep upping the credit limit without checking you can pay. and ofcourse covid plays its part here and they've already admitted as they allowed payments holidays until october in line with the rest of the industry and they should be continuing that. you problem is you keep using the phone, no paperwork no record of things discussed. i'd get an SAR off to them. and get the comms/account log and all the statements from day one and go nail them.
    • Hello CAG, Bit of a long post, may want to get a cuppa before starting reading... 😁   after being a lurker for many years and trying never to get into a mess with credit cards like i did 20 years ago, i've got myself into a mess with Amex... I've tried being open and honest with them, but now getting the feeling they are messing me around.    Its not a chargecard, but a Nectar Credit Card with them. TAKEN out 2016. Balance is just under £15k as of today, was almost at £17k.  Debt still owed by Amex, not been sent to NCO/Arrow etc - YET...    Background (short version): Was all fine with more than min. payment (£500 or so), being made until April 2020 when a number of things reduced my monthly salary from work (mainly, take a pay cut or be made redundant), so I soon quickly realised i needed to tighten my belt quickly. Phoned Amex, advisor said nothing they could do except Payment Holiday. Was put onto that for 3 months, told that Amex will be in touch at the end to restart payments. I asked about interest being stopped/frozen/reduced - not possible. So agreed to payment holiday to give me breathing space. 3 months came and went, no contact from Amex... No payments made, interest still racking up at around £300 a month...    Rang Amex back (July 2020), we cant do anything today because your in the middle of the statement cycle call back next week. Called back week after, no solution yet (i asked about things i seen on Amex US website = Regain program - basically freeze card, lower interest rate and pay a set amount for 12 months - more about this later) > Not available in UK yet.   Want to stay on payment holiday Mister B? I asked if there was any way interest could be stopped as this is making the balance increase and increase. No. Do you want to stay on Payment Holiday? Ok. (Bear in mind, if i came off Payment holiday. Minimum Payment was around £570 per month.  So, stayed on payment holiday... Didnt hear anything from Amex again. Called back up in September 2020. Please call back in October after 10th and we can assist.   Called back after October 10, went through loads of stuff, different options etc, was warned that Payment Holiday might not be extended much longer, but now have a program. Worked out with Amex woman that i could pay around £200 per month. But please stop interest - no we cant but we can reduce this down to 9.9APR instead of 23%... . Amex woman said she needed to submit details to 'Seniors' at Amex, please call back next week for update.   Called back week after, advised that first Amex woman was wrong and had made mistakes, shouldn't have told me what she had told me, £200 is too low, minimum would be £389 per month for 12 months or account will default. Told Amex woman 2 that couldn't afford it, went through this last time, etc etc. Amex woman 2 went off, came back, £329.74 is minimum they can possibly accept, 12 months at that amount per month and interest would be lowered, but not stopped. If you dont take out this 'Program' then account will default and will be passed to NCO or Arrow (I hate them both).  Went off, tried to get loans etc, all refused. Rang Amex back, reluctantly agreed so i can keep credit rating at 'good'.  So, been paying since Nov 2021 @ £329.74.    Letter arrived in December - due to out mess up with moving accounts around whilst on payment holiday, we are going to give you £3074 back. Logged into account, only £30.74 refunded, not £3074. Phoned Amex cos thought it was a joke/mistake - Spoke to some bloke - Oh dont worry, the rest will be applied to account automatically in 7 days. he advised was genuine but then got cut off during call. Called back, spoke to some other bloke, yes, looks genuine but please hold... Came back 10 minutes later. Oh, its a mis-print, you are not the only customer to receive one of these. Each should have been £30.74 not £3074. Me = Gutted.    Wrote a letter to Amex saying how dissatisfied i was with general customer service and felt they were incompetent, blah blah etc. Final response received, Complaint partially upheld, heres £150 credit because we were a bit silly, but thats it. IF your still not happy, go to FOS. Opened a case with FOS... Have sent them the complaint letter to them and have had a call from them about this... FOS are backlogged though and will take another 3 months for complaint to be looked at by them.   Let me make this 100% clear, fully admit to owning the debt, yep, ive spent this money (wish I knew what on, cos having got much to show from it - just general stuff and holidays)... Not trying to shirk out of it, trying my best to keep up with re-payments but im really struggling. After I got paid on 1st April, after paying all outgoings i had £9.83 left in current account so am having to go into overdraft each month which is just a vicious circle.  I would really like to NOT have to down the default route and trash my credit rating and then have to deal with the morons at NCO / Arrow etc.    Meanwhile, this is where I need the advice of the CAG experts... - Credit Limit increases... These were coming every few months and it was just being upped and upped and upped. Credit limit eventually was stopped at £15,400. Some of the increases I never even received letter for, just noticed when I logged into account. >>>> Would this be a case for irresponsible lending?   - Stopping interest - I've read something on FCA site that they recommend (not policy) that if a customer is put onto a payment holiday then they recommend freezing interest for customer so the debt doesn't continue to build. I've asked time and time again, Amex just refuse.  >>>> Any tips on how to get Amex to play ball?    - Full & Final/Short settlement I've rung Amex today, told them I might be able to pay it off. Initially they said full balance, i then pushed, they then said they would accept 80% of balance, pushed them a bit more, got it down to 70%. >>> Surprised, and then very surprised they would accept 70%, anyone else think this is a bit odd? Normally they wont budge, or they wont budge from their first offer... Could their be something wrong on account (missing CCA etc?), or do they want rid of me and account as much as I do with them?   - Cant really keep going at these £329.74 repayments. Something is going to have to give somewhere. I believe they wont go any lower and they will just default it i send £100 instead of £329 and send it out to NCO/Arrow. This might not be a too bad thing though because this would stop the interest right? Anyone thoughts on this?    Anyone think of anything else I could try with them? Again, its still with Amex, not defaulted or anything yet, yep, its all my own fault, i've spent the money, dont deny that, just feel Amex have took advantage etc.   Many thanks for reading. Any advice is greatly appreciated.   Kr, Mista B.     
    • Ok so we have complained to HMRC but were still no further forward with getting the P45/P60. We need this as DVLA has said they need more proof of who he is before giving him a provisional license.  What more can l do. 
    • Hi All   just looking for some advice. I bought a used Porsche Boxster from one of Marshall motor group’s Audi dealers (can I name them?) recently and was assured that it received a major service in October 2020 in line with the manufacturers requirements. The service book confirms this. The dealer also told me on the phone that they have a 6 month rule with any mot or service being done if due within this period which assured me when making an offer over the phone on the car that it wouldn’t need anything doing for a while as I recall saying that.   However, digging through the receipts post delivery I saw that the service was in fact minor and after calling the specialist who serviced it in Oct both they (Sheepishly) and the invoice confirmed that the car did not receive new spark plugs, an air filter, brake fluid replacement or a new fan belt which have now all fallen due and hence the major service due warning light. Had I not investigated this then the car would have potentially gone another 4 years, so 8 in total without some of these items being done.   i emailed the salesman to ask what they would propose to do. The matter is complicated by my living 450 miles away in Scotland, and 200 from their nearest branch, a Mercedes dealer in the Lake District, so I suggested getting my cheapest local specialist to do the works that have fallen due, however I have received no response.   Whilst I am still within my 30 days i don’t want to reject the car, which is otherwise perfect, but the fact remains that the Audi 150 point check only asks for upcoming mot’s to be checked and not services and surely you wouldn’t buy an approved used car and expect to have the service light come on 2 weeks later and have to spend almost £500 putting it right.   i would really appreciate some advice on next steps and perhaps who to escalate this to. Meantime the car is booked in for 2 weeks time to get the work done at the cheapest reputable place I could find.   Many, many thanks in advance
  • Recommended Topics

  • Our picks

    • Ebay Packlink and Hermes - destroyed item as it was "damaged". https://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/topic/430396-ebay-packlink-and-hermes-destroyed-item-as-it-was-damaged/&do=findComment&comment=5087347
      • 32 replies
    • I sent in the bailiffs to the BBC. They collected £350. It made me smile.
        • Haha
        • Like
    • Hi @BankFodder
      Sorry for only updating you now, but after your guidance with submitting the claim it was pretty straight forward and I didn't want to unnecessarily waste your time. Especially with this guide you wrote here, so many thanks for that
      So I issued the claim on day 15 and they requested more time to respond.
      They took until the last day to respond and denied the claim, unsurprisingly saying my contract was with Packlink and not with them.
       
      I opted for mediation, and it played out very similarly to other people's experiences.
       
      In the first call I outlined my case, and I referred to the Contracts (Rights of Third Parties) Act 1999 as the reason to why I do in fact have a contract with them. 
       
      In the second call the mediator came back with an offer of the full amount of the phone and postage £146.93, but not the court costs. I said I was not willing to accept this and the mediator came across as a bit irritated that I would not accept this and said I should be flexible. I insisted that the law was on my side and I was willing to take them to court. The mediator went back to Hermes with what I said.
       
      In the third call the mediator said that they would offer the full amount. However, he said that Hermes still thought that I should have taken the case against Packlink instead, and that they would try to recover the court costs themselves from Packlink.
       
      To be fair to them, if Packlink wasn't based in Spain I would've made the claim against them instead. But since they are overseas and the law lets me take action against Hermes directly, it's the best way of trying to recover the money.
       
      So this is a great win. Thank you so much for your help and all of the resources available on this site. It has helped me so much especially as someone who does not know anything about making money claims.
       
      Many thanks, stay safe and have a good Christmas!
       
       
        • Thanks
    • Hermes and mediation hints. https://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/topic/428981-hermes-and-mediation-hints/&do=findComment&comment=5080003
      • 1 reply
  • Recommended Topics

  • Recommended Topics

CCA Request Response - "original executed agreement no longer available"


style="text-align: center;">  

Thread Locked

because no one has posted on it for the last 3137 days.

If you need to add something to this thread then

 

Please click the "Report " link

 

at the bottom of one of the posts.

 

If you want to post a new story then

Please

Start your own new thread

That way you will attract more attention to your story and get more visitors and more help 

 

Thanks

Recommended Posts

Hi All.

 

I have a thread elsewhere on another debt I have.

 

This is my first post about this one. Now owned by a DCA, it is for a credit card that originally started in 1998.

 

In response to a CCA request for it, the DCA that now owns the debt has provided a reconstitution that is missing the original terms.

 

They also state

Due to the age of the account the original executed agreement is no longer available...
I am assuming that this soundly makes the debt unenforceable?

 

I know I should know this stuff by now - but please could someone confirm?

Link to post
Share on other sites

If they cannot supply a copy of the original signed agreement then unenforceable as per CCA 127(3) as in photo copy etc with your signature and all prescribed terms.

 

dpick

cannot find it A to Z

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/consumer-forums-website-questions/53182-cant-find-what-youre.html

 

 

Halifax :D

Paid in full £2295

 

MBNA:mad: 20/03/2008 settled in full out of court

 

Capital One:D

07/07/2007 Capital one charges paid in full £1666

19/01/2008 recovered PPI £2216 + costs

 

Littlewoods :-D

12/08/2007 write off £1176.10 debt.

 

JD Williams charges refunded in full £640

Link to post
Share on other sites
Hi All.

 

I have a thread elsewhere on another debt I have.

 

This is my first post about this one. Now owned by a DCA, it is for a credit card that originally started in 1998.

 

In response to a CCA request for it, the DCA that now owns the debt has provided a reconstitution that is missing the original terms.

 

They also state

I am assuming that this soundly makes the debt unenforceable?

 

I know I should know this stuff by now - but please could someone confirm?

 

They are precluded from enforcement whilst in breach of your cca request. If they do comply by providing the original terms the agreement would be enforceable. However, if you were to deny signing any agreement this would be a different matter and the evidential hurdle would be hard to overcome.

An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last. <br />

Winston Churchill

Link to post
Share on other sites

'Parliament's intention in enacting section 127(3) of the 1974 Act was to make a loan, made under a regulated agreement, unenforceable in certain events. The courts cannot defeat that intention by allowing some alternative means of recovery.' Wilson case.

in general, Q is what proof would be required (or would a J accept) to show that there was/is a signed doc that contains all of the prescribed terms? and can such 'proof' be rebutted, if required, to tip the balance.

any recon should be accurate as defined (kotecha v phoenix case), which should include copy original terms.

Edited by Ford

IMO

:-):rant:

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
If they cannot supply a copy of the original signed agreement then unenforceable as per CCA 127(3) as in photo copy etc with your signature and all prescribed terms.

 

dpick

Not true. They only have to prove that on the balance of probabilities an enforceable agreement was signed

Link to post
Share on other sites

Sorry friend but CCA 1974 s127(3) still applies for agreements prior to April 2007 and this agreement was from 1998

 

dpick

cannot find it A to Z

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/consumer-forums-website-questions/53182-cant-find-what-youre.html

 

 

Halifax :D

Paid in full £2295

 

MBNA:mad: 20/03/2008 settled in full out of court

 

Capital One:D

07/07/2007 Capital one charges paid in full £1666

19/01/2008 recovered PPI £2216 + costs

 

Littlewoods :-D

12/08/2007 write off £1176.10 debt.

 

JD Williams charges refunded in full £640

Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes, of course 127 applies. However the bank does not have to present the original in court if they can prove that an enforceable agreement must have been signed , this was quite clearly stated by Waksman see section 229

Link to post
Share on other sites

just to be sure, which case do you refer to? afaik, W was referring re a cca request. which was later addressed in kotecha, ie yes a recon, but recon must be accurate?

s127 (3) relates to an improperly executed agreement s61 (1) (a) and s65, not s77/78. so, if they can't show a properly executed agreement then they need to rely on s65. which in turn is dependent on s127 (re pre 2007). as per my post #4, q is what proof is required re showing that? cca request proof excepted.

 

also, in any event, where a claim is based on a written agreement a copy of the original 'should' be available in court according to the cpr. but, what weight does that have? :)

Edited by Ford

IMO

:-):rant:

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
just to be sure, which case do you refer to? afaik, W was referring re a cca request. which was later addressed in kotecha, ie yes a recon, but recon must be accurate?

s127 (3) relates to an improperly executed agreement s61 (1) (a) and s65, not s77/78. so, if they can't show a properly executed agreement then they need to rely on s65. which in turn is dependent on s127 (re pre 2007). as per my post #4, q is what proof is required re showing that? cca request proof excepted.

 

also, in any event, where a claim is based on a written agreement a copy of the original 'should' be available in court according to the cpr. but, what weight does that have? :)

 

I'm afraid there isn't a one cap fits all aproach to this, each case would be settled by evidence provided and if the claimant proves on balance that a document was signed containing the prescribed terms the DJ will enforce, however, as i've previously stated if the debtor denies signing then the DJ would probably insist on the claimant presenting the original.

An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last. <br />

Winston Churchill

Link to post
Share on other sites

I did not sign the agreement - it was posted. Call me cynical for not signing it and posting it back. And call them cynical for supplying the credit despite this.

 

Is the admission that the original agreement is no longer available sufficient evidence for defence of a claim that stated in the Particulars that an agreement was in force?

 

Or would I still need to ask the opposing side to produce a signed agreement (under S.127(3)) as part of my defence?

 

I.e. is my position the same as if I didn't have a letter stating that they do not have the original agreement?

Link to post
Share on other sites
I did not sign the agreement - it was posted. Call me cynical for not signing it and posting it back. And call them cynical for supplying the credit despite this.

 

Is the admission that the original agreement is no longer available sufficient evidence for defence of a claim that stated in the Particulars that an agreement was in force?

 

Or would I still need to ask the opposing side to produce a signed agreement (under S.127(3)) as part of my defence?

 

I.e. is my position the same as if I didn't have a letter stating that they do not have the original agreement?

 

IMO, the DJ would require sight of the signed original document.

An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last. <br />

Winston Churchill

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 3 weeks later...

Ok, so my scenario is similar. I have an "credit card request form" sent to me as the copy of my agreement taken out in 2002. It has no prescribed terms on it. Do I take it that this is un-enforcable? When I said it didnt comply to my CCA request they said they had sent me a copy of my "Application", their words, not "Agreement", is that an admission that what they have sent me is not an Agreement?

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 3 weeks later...
Ok, so my scenario is similar. I have an "credit card request form" sent to me as the copy of my agreement taken out in 2002. It has no prescribed terms on it. Do I take it that this is un-enforcable? When I said it didnt comply to my CCA request they said they had sent me a copy of my "Application", their words, not "Agreement", is that an admission that what they have sent me is not an Agreement?

 

An application is not an Agreement. They must provide a copy of the signed Agreement that includes all the prescribed terms or at least refers to them so that they can be easily seen. If they do NOT have that agreement, they could cobble one together by taking an agreement from the same period and showing your signature on the application and I guess hope the Judge gives them the balance of probability. depends what sort of Judge you get, but the onus is on them to prove it... maybe someone else would confirm if this is how it is ?

Link to post
Share on other sites

The courts have accepted applications as the agreement as long as the application has all the required items under the CCA1974.

 

dpick

cannot find it A to Z

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/consumer-forums-website-questions/53182-cant-find-what-youre.html

 

 

Halifax :D

Paid in full £2295

 

MBNA:mad: 20/03/2008 settled in full out of court

 

Capital One:D

07/07/2007 Capital one charges paid in full £1666

19/01/2008 recovered PPI £2216 + costs

 

Littlewoods :-D

12/08/2007 write off £1176.10 debt.

 

JD Williams charges refunded in full £640

Link to post
Share on other sites

Then as post 2 unenforceable under s127(3) see fords post 8 above.

 

dpick

cannot find it A to Z

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/consumer-forums-website-questions/53182-cant-find-what-youre.html

 

 

Halifax :D

Paid in full £2295

 

MBNA:mad: 20/03/2008 settled in full out of court

 

Capital One:D

07/07/2007 Capital one charges paid in full £1666

19/01/2008 recovered PPI £2216 + costs

 

Littlewoods :-D

12/08/2007 write off £1176.10 debt.

 

JD Williams charges refunded in full £640

Link to post
Share on other sites
Ok, so what do I do now, the judge found in favour of the claimant and refused me the right to appeal in court.

 

Just re read you thread no mention of court, no posting of POC etc. We cannot help without proper information.

 

dpick

cannot find it A to Z

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/consumer-forums-website-questions/53182-cant-find-what-youre.html

 

 

Halifax :D

Paid in full £2295

 

MBNA:mad: 20/03/2008 settled in full out of court

 

Capital One:D

07/07/2007 Capital one charges paid in full £1666

19/01/2008 recovered PPI £2216 + costs

 

Littlewoods :-D

12/08/2007 write off £1176.10 debt.

 

JD Williams charges refunded in full £640

Link to post
Share on other sites

yes, they should if they have one. if not, then they would have to show that there was such a debtor signed doc that contains all of the prescribed terms (if s127(3)(4)).

an accurate recon (not a cut and paste job) would satisfy a cca request. if not deemed accurate, then unenforceable in court re cca request until it is so (kotecha case).

bandit - would then need to mention s127 3,4 and put them to strict proof that they have satisfied it (they have the initial burden of proof anyway, but should mention s127 3,4 anyway just in case cred friendly j forgets s127!). note that if using s127 3,4 would require careful argument if required ready to rebut any of their usual arguments why s127 satisfied. and, no gaurantees.

if appealing, bear in mind costs.

also, there is the requirement for compliant default notice (if applicable), woodchester, harrison, brandon cases.

Edited by Ford

IMO

:-):rant:

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Ok Folks, here are all the letters and details for my wifes case. I could do with someone having a look as we have had a letter from the court confirming the CCJ and that we have to contact the creditors. How long do I have and can I appeal even though it says appeal denied on the letter.

 

heres a link to all the scans of the paperwork

 

http://s911.photobucket.com/albums/ac318/zentrix9/Mrs%20HSBC/

Edited by ZENTRIX9
Link to post
Share on other sites
Ok Folks, here are all the letters and details for my wifes case. I could do with someone having a look as we have had a letter from the court confirming the CCJ and that we have to contact the creditors. How long do I have and can I appeal even though it says appeal denied on the letter.

 

heres a link to all the scans of the paperwork

 

http://s911.photobucket.com/albums/ac318/zentrix9/Mrs%20HSBC/

 

 

Thanks for that info in your files, same situation as myself to a degree, falsely stating CCJ when not at the time etc.

:mad2::-x:jaw::sad:
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Recently Browsing   0 Caggers

    No registered users viewing this page.


  • Have we helped you ...?


×
×
  • Create New...