lie detectors

[debt4get]

sex offenders to be given lie detectors

link here

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-18916405

i read the news this morning and my natural instincts on reading the piece was, good!

until i read a little further and found they are now thinking of introducing this for people in work, i forsee the day, where employers will be forcing employees to take these tests.

and it raises further problems, what if you could possibly be convicted in court because of these tests? nothing this govt does no longer surprises me.

link here

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/west_midlands/8354559.stm

[LaughingGirl]

I think we've just taken the first step on a very slippery slope. Polygraphs are complete junk science. One day, people will look at them the same way as they do people who dowse.

 

The only possible benefit is that some people might tell the truth out of fear of being found out.

[debt4get]

i think clegg and cameron, have spent too many mornings watching jeremy kyle!!!

[duckwaddler]

I like it!

 

There's no denying that when a person lies uncontrollable changes happen that a lie detector picks up - and I know that Jeremy Kyle has bad press, but all those who fail do then go on to admit they lied.

 

I'm hoping they can be brought n for all those suspected/accused peadophiles/rapists who have potentially got away scott free - I know of a couple of people who'll be sweating over this in case they do allow this to be taken further!

[locutus]

The problem is it is not a 100% science, it's open to interpretation. They can also be beaten with different techniques, and the guilty will learn those and the innocent will not putting the results even further askew than they already are.

 

Lets convict people of a crime because their is proof that they commited it, rather than the witch hunt that is a lie detector test.

[SOD'EM]

 

Lets convict people of a crime because their is proof that they commited it, rather than the witch hunt that is a lie detector test.

 

I agree. A lie detector can only give a probability that someone is lying. That is nowhere near proof that is required.

I suffer with constant high blood pressure and have the occasional panic attack. I am sure either of them would cause the

machine to give alarm bells. I am not sure exactly how they work, but it's got to be something to do with nerve reactions

after getting asked certain questions. Everyone that is suspected of a crime should just be put in front of Judge Judy.

According to her, she can tell a mile away if someone is lying just by looking at them.

 

The best (and proven method) way to tell if someone is lying is to just tell them to stick their tongue out.

 

If it's blue. They're lying.........Simples. (see....mines red).

[locutus]

The best way to see if someone is telling a lie is to know the truth (red tongue here aswell)

[duckwaddler]

I don't think high blood pressure or panic/anxiety has anything to do with how they determine the results (I remember watching a docu about how the machine actually picks up those tiny signals when we're trying to be deceptive).

 

There were people there who generally suffered from extreme anxiety anyway, that causes sweating, palpitations, raised blood pressure etc etc - we all know what the symptoms of anxiety are, they're not nice either lol!

 

Apparently this is why they do the test questions, such as asking your name, date of birth etc, if you're anxious, you'll be anxious no matter what you're being asked.

 

But when we're being deceptive, the body gives of a whole new set of reactions and symptoms, as the body releases different chemicals for different reactions - such as adrenaline, serotonin etc etc - it is those VERY subtle reactions that the body unknowingly gives of when we're being deceptive that is picked up - it doesn't matter if we're sweating like an anxious wotsit in a sauna, or that our blood pressure is raised, they account for all that from the strict and in depth test samples they take before hand, and they eliminate each persons normal anxiety reaction.

 

A little bit like "white coat syndrome", that a lot of people suffer from - just because they have white coat syndrome doesn't mean they can't still have high blood pressure.

 

I understand the witch hunt aspect of this, as that what humans tend to do - but think on the flip side of this, someone who has been wrongly accused? This use of lie detection could very well clear their name!

[woody1066]

There is a tv program you can get called Penn & Teller Bull***t. They exposed polygraphs for the quack (sorry duckwaddler) science that they are. Aparantly there is one muscle in your body that if you constrict it ithen it raises your blood pressure at will. I will leave it to you people to work out whch muscle it is

[duckwaddler]

I agree. A lie detector can only give a probability that someone is lying. That is nowhere near proof that is required.

I suffer with constant high blood pressure and have the occasional panic attack. I am sure either of them would cause the

machine to give alarm bells. I am not sure exactly how they work, but it's got to be something to do with nerve reactions

after getting asked certain questions. Everyone that is suspected of a crime should just be put in front of Judge Judy.

According to her, she can tell a mile away if someone is lying just by looking at them.

 

The best (and proven method) way to tell if someone is lying is to just tell them to stick their tongue out.

 

If it's blue. They're lying.........Simples. (see....mines red).

 

My Nana lied to me!!!! She used to tell me my tongue would go black!

 

There is a tv program you can get called Penn & Teller Bull***t. They exposed polygraphs for the quack (sorry duckwaddler) science that they are. Aparantly there is one muscle in your body that if you constrict it ithen it raises your blood pressure at will. I will leave it to you people to work out whch muscle it is

 

Apology accepted, but no need really - I am used to it

 

Forgot to add - I wouldn't have a problem taking one!

[Crazy Diamond]

There is a tv program you can get called Penn & Teller Bull***t. They exposed polygraphs for the quack (sorry duckwaddler) science that they are. Aparantly there is one muscle in your body that if you constrict it ithen it raises your blood pressure at will. I will leave it to you people to work out whch muscle it is

Well, that's rich from someone calling himself Woody!!!

 

Polygraphs are about as reliable as Cameron's childminding skills.

[woody1066]

Its not THAT muscle. But its not far away from it

[Crazy Diamond]

Its not THAT muscle. But its not far away from it

I know, cos THAT's not a muscle. If it were, watching people at the gym would be a lot different.

[duckwaddler]

Well, that's rich from someone calling himself Woody!!!

 

Polygraphs are about as reliable as Cameron's childminding skills.

 

I have to stop drinking coffee when using the lap top - this is the second time today I nearly had an accident laughing

[LaughingGirl]

There's loads of MOJ's in the States because of lie detector tests. One I can think of off the top of my head was a kid who failed a polygraph while being questioned over a girl who was murdered at or after a party. He got several false positives throughout the test, because the questions indirectly related to the possession and use of drugs. He didn't answer truthfully because he would have had to admit to using and possessing (I think) cocaine. What followed was a bunch of Keystone Cops constructing a case around a lie detector test, and totally ignoring any actual evidence. I don't remember how long he spent in prison, but it was a long time. The only reason he was ever released is because the DNA at the crime scene was eventually matched to another sex offender, through testing done via The Innocence Project.

 

On the subject of Jeremy Kyle, I know someone who appeared on that show, lied through her teeth and passed with flying colours.

[duckwaddler]

There's loads of MOJ's in the States because of lie detector tests. One I can think of off the top of my head was a kid who failed a polygraph while being questioned over a girl who was murdered at or after a party. He got several false positives throughout the test, because the questions indirectly related to the possession and use of drugs. He didn't answer truthfully because he would have had to admit to using and possessing (I think) cocaine. What followed was a bunch of Keystone Cops constructing a case around a lie detector test, and totally ignoring any actual evidence. I don't remember how long he spent in prison, but it was a long time. The only reason he was ever released is because the DNA at the crime scene was eventually matched to another sex offender, through testing done via The Innocence Project.

 

On the subject of Jeremy Kyle, I know someone who appeared on that show, lied through her teeth and passed with flying colours.

 

Yep, they can't be used if the said person is on drugs or pregnant as this affects the results.

 

A person who lies and passes is someone who actually believes their own lies, as if you believe your own lies your body won't react - I hope they're not a friend of yours?

 

The drugs/pregnant part would be easy to get around - however the problem of a calculated liar wouldn't!

[LaughingGirl]

No, he didn't get false positives because he was on drugs at the time - he got a false positive because he was answering untruthfully because he didn't want to get into trouble about the drugs. Like many people, he made the mistake of believing that because he was genuinely innocent of the murder, he wouldn't be found guilty and justice would prevail. The man who was actually guilty in that case went on to commit a string of rapes and two more murders in the time the innocent man was in prison, all of which would have been prevented had the Police in question actually followed the evidence rather than the polygraph results. The point is, polygraphs are fallible for a myriad of reasons, and it's dangerous to rely on the results they give. As someone said up-thread, lets find people guilty (or not) based on the evidence - not based on whether a machine thinks they are.

 

No definitely not a friend, she's a highly unpleasant human being. Personally, I think she passed because she's too stupid to feel guilt or paranoia (and I'm not joking). Her husband is a paranoid schizophrenic - I find it completely bizarre and quite wrong that he was encouraged to appear on something like Jeremy Kyle, when he's quite clearly very unwell. That's another story, though.

[locutus]

The obvious joke: My doctor says I'm a paranoid schizophrenic... well, he didn't exactly say it, but we both knew thats what he was thinking.

 

Many serial killers have pass a polygraph, freeing them to kill again. Ted Bundy and John Wayne Gacy both passed lie detectors.

[duckwaddler]

No definitely not a friend, she's a highly unpleasant human being. Personally, I think she passed because she's too stupid to feel guilt or paranoia (and I'm not joking). Her husband is a paranoid schizophrenic - I find it completely bizarre and quite wrong that he was encouraged to appear on something like Jeremy Kyle, when he's quite clearly very unwell. That's another story, though.

 

Oh I completely believe you - sociopaths have absolutely no feelings of love or compassion, let alone guilt - so it wouldn't surprise in the least that she passed! Thank God she's no friend of yours

 

The obvious joke: My doctor says I'm a paranoid schizophrenic... well, he didn't exactly say it, but we both knew thats what he was thinking.

 

Many serial killers have pass a polygraph, freeing them to kill again. Ted Bundy and John Wayne Gacy both passed lie detectors.

 

Love those jokes!

 

But yes again - most serial killers are or have high sociopathic levels, so no surprise there!

 

I would love to have a go at taking a lie detector though, I reckon It'd be interesting - I love anything about human psychology, body language and behaviour! The only downside to having a huge interest is - you know what clear signs to look out for when people are being deceptive, which then makes you realise that a high majority of people can't be trusted

[LaughingGirl]

The obvious joke: My doctor says I'm a paranoid schizophrenic... well, he didn't exactly say it, but we both knew thats what he was thinking.

 

Many serial killers have pass a polygraph, freeing them to kill again. Ted Bundy and John Wayne Gacy both passed lie detectors.

 

Sociopaths/psychopaths/borderlines are notorious for getting through lie detectors. I question whether they would be that effective in relation to genuine paedophiles, too - many paedophiles don't feel guilt about what they're doing because they don't feel it's wrong (ie. they believe that the "relationship" is loving and consensual). That leaves us with child molestors, and quite a lot of them are socio/psychopaths. I have no doubt that it might encourage a few to tell the truth regarding their whereabouts/current urges in case they get caught out, but in all honesty I think it's more likely to drive them underground and drop off the radar so they can avoid the test in the first place.

 

Duck, I cannot explain how horrendous that woman is. I don't think she's sociopathic, she's just...very, very dull. One of those people who lurch through life crisis to crisis, most of which she causes herself (for example, attempting to settle differences in her marriage by dragging her mentally ill husband onto a TV chat show).

[assisted blonde]

I was told that if you told lies you would get spots on your tongue.

[LaughingGirl]

I was told that if you told lies you would get spots on your tongue.

 

The question is, do you have any spots on your tongue AB?

[duckwaddler]

The question is, do you have any spots on your tongue AB?

 

I used to worry when I saw a black mark on my tongue as a child, as my Nana used to tell me my tongue would go black when I lied - it never entered my head it was because I'd been eating black jacks