Transport Investigations Letter

[naren543]

I was stopped on 24/04/2012 in cross country when I was travelling from Leeds to Sheffield in Cross Country. I was using a two part return ticket during that travel which i used while coming to Leeds. I used to live in Sheffield and have Travelmaster southyorkshire pass fortrain travel in South yorkshire. When I travelled from Sheffield to Leeds I was issued a two part ticket from moorthorpe to leeds as south yorkshire boundary ends there.

 

While returning from Leeds, i just missed a train in a platform and a member of staff in the railway station asked me when i wanted to go. I told him i was returning to Sheffield and showed him the ticket and Southyorkshire pass as he wanted to see my ticket. He advised me to board a train that was about to leave then, which was a Cross Country express train.

 

During the course of my travel the ticket inspector saw the ticket and said it was invalid on that train and asked me to purchase a new ticket. I refused because I used the same combination of ticket to come to Leeds and more over I was asked to board that particular train by a member of railway station staff who already verified the ticket. I said I wanted to raise a complaint, and asked him the details. After making few phone calls the ticket inspector said he will get my details and will issue a Zero value ticket.He also verified my ID details.

 

He suddenly seized my travel pass and ticket and walked away. I explained him that I need to use the travel pass for other days in South yorkshire and asked him why he did not mention he would seize my pass. I even said I would pay for the ticket and raise a complaint later but I needed the travel pass for further travel. He behaved so rude and put me in an embarrassing situation and walked off.

 

After getting down in Sheffield he came back and gave me the travel pass which he took photograph of earlier and took an expired travel pass. He said I would be contacted by cross country within a month by post and I may be asked to pay the train fare then. I had to move to Leeds in the next couple of weeks, however I did not receive any correspondence for a month from them. I was sent letter from cross country to my old address dated 28/06 asking me to contact TIL. I was then told that there was a letter dated 09/07 stating TIL is considering wether to issue summons.

 

I called TIL said i wanted to speak to the related person and mentioned that I have moved house in the beginning of may but I received a letter from Cross Country dated the end of may.I did not mention that I knew about the second letter. The lady on the phone checked my details on the system and said there was no incidence raised in my name and address. She advised me to send a letter to TIL stating I have changed address.

 

I am not sure what should i say in the letter and bit confused if they are trying to threaten me first even before asking for a dialogue. Kindly give me some guidance.

[rebel11]

Hi naren

 

Welcome to CAG

 

The guys will be happy to advise as soon as they are available.

 

Please let us know how your problem has been resolved, it could help fellow Caggers.

[Old-CodJA]

You would be well advised to go to the station and get a signed note from the person that you say gave you permission to use the ticket confirming that to be the case.

 

The rail company will have written to the address that you gave the inspector.

 

If the rail inspector identified an offence and you didn't reply to their letter it will probably mean that the rail company decided to refer the matter for prosecution.

[rebel11]

Hi Naren

 

If you wish to complain, write a Formal Letter of Complaint, mark it as such. Explain whats happened, how they let you down and what you want them to do.

 

Send it to:-

 

Andy Cooper, Chief Executive

[email protected]

 

Some tips:- http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-1242161/How--write-letter-complaint.html

[naren543]

Ideally I wont be able to identify the person in the station and get a signature. Now that I they have sent a letter dated 09-July that they may take it to prosecution if I dont reply within 14 days. I am now a bit confused.

 

- TIL seems to have no record of who is handling the case or anything.

- Do I call them again or send them the full story to their address?

- I am still skeptic to go to their website and login to see any details as I haven't told them about the second letter.

- Does 14 days means 14 working days or calender days? because I might run out of time.

 

Kindly Help.

[RPI]

Answer me one question here, is the south yorkshire pass a "Zonal" or "rover" type ticket and did you have another ticket to cover you from the station you were travelling FROM to the boundary of the South Yorkshire travel pass?

[naren543]

The pass I was having is called Travelmaster.. which is a rover kind of pass.. one can use it to travel in bus, train, tram , anything within south yorkshire.. I was having another ticket to cover the journey from leeds(west yorkshire) to south yorkshire boundary... a two part return ticket which I used to go into Leeds the same morning... The ticket inspector was telling me that that was not valid in express trains as it does not stop in between the boundaries.

 

I spoke to TIL again and they asked me to send a letter explaining my version of the incident and my new address change, also asking me to mention if I wanted to resolve it administratively rather than taking it to court.

 

Can anyone tell me if they normally prefer to settle down administratively and if so, how much fine would I be charged.

 

NB: the ticket inspector mentioned that cross country would ask me to pay the train fare alone when i was sent any letter.

[RPI]

If the ticket is zonal and you had a ticket to cover the other part then the train does not need to stop at the station where one becomes valid, however, it may be the case that the SYPTE card thing isn't valid at all on XC services meaning that this combo of tickets wouldn't be valid. Is the pass not valid on XC services?

[naren543]

Apparently it seems so, because the ticket inspector said that combination tickets are not valid in express trains.

[RPI]

well you need to look at the Terms and conditions of the pass to see whether it is or it isn't, it may make a big difference.

[Grotesque]

BUT-! Better to find out the rights and wrongs of the case first mate before complaining. As RPI says, find out if were in the right first. If so, let 'em have it. IIf not, we'll still be here.

 

Good luck!

[naren543]

I have sent TIL with explaining what has happened. Fingers crossed.

[Grotesque]

Good man. Cheers.

[naren543]

I have received a letter from TIL stating they have noted my points but still the railway company sees no reason why the case should not be proceeded and a summons may now be made. they have asked me to make to comment on it within 14 days. What shall I reply, to avoid any litigation? I even mentioned in my previous letter I prefer to solve it administratively, but they now say they may proceed with summons. Kindly help.

[Old-CodJA]

I have received a letter from TIL stating they have noted my points but still the railway company sees no reason why the case should not be proceeded and a summons may now be made. they have asked me to make to comment on it within 14 days. What shall I reply, to avoid any litigation? I even mentioned in my previous letter I prefer to solve it administratively, but they now say they may proceed with summons. Kindly help.

 

As we have pointed out many times, the rail companies are not obliged to accept settlement, but that doesn't prevent anyone from asking.

 

The 18 point Travelmaster Terms & Conditions document does make clear that if the train you are on does not stop at the boundary of the travelmaster zones, then combination tickets, which would extend a journey are not valid and the pass does not appear to be valid on Cross Country.

 

The pass is restricted to travel wholly within South Yorkshire PTE.

[naren543]

It is because of misguidance of a railway staff that I had to board the train.The train company (XC) may not want to accept or believe me. There may be CCTV recordings but it wont have the audio conversations. Ultimately I am being affected. In this scenario, from the experience of you guys will XC come to any settlement( If I write to them directly apart from TIL) or otherwise, and as a worst case scenario, if they have to proceed with summons what would be the consequences?

 

NB: In the recent letter I have received from TIL they had enclosed information detailing reporting procedure and rules concerning ticketing and travel. A foot note on which in highlighted text was as follows.

 

"If no previous incidence of irregular travelling has been recorded and depending upon the specific circumstances, an otherwise prosecutable case, at the discretion of the Rail Company or their agents, may be dealt with by the issue of a Payment Notice requiring payment of the fare due plus administration charges as allowed by current legislation. This does not prejudice Court action should any such notice remain unpaid. If any matter is subsequently forwarded for Court action the Magistrates are asked to award compensation of any fare and costs incurred in any successful prosecution. This may include the Prosecutor's time and expenses and is in addition to any fine that the Court may impose."

Edited July 31, 2012 by naren543
to include enclosed note in the letter

[firstclassx]

Unfortunately, as you have learnt from other posters, your combination of tickets was not valid for travel with CrossCountry.

 

This is because your train did not stop at the point at the boundary point for your tickets.

 

Usually, possession of a season ticket negates this requirement for the train to stop at the point and which you change tickets, however, the Travelmaster is specially excluded from this "easement" by NRCoC Condition 19© because the Travelmaster is issued on or on behalf of South Yorkshire PTE (Public Transport Executive).

 

Subsequently, you boarded a train which did not stop at the boundary station, which caused you to breach National Rail Conditions of Carriage, (to which your tickets are issued) and strict liability Railway Byelaw 18 - Travelling without a valid ticket. The terms to which you purchase your ticket are brought to your attention when you purchased the ticket in the following manner:

 

 

My opinion of this scenario is, so long as you co-operated with the traincrew, did not get abusive or overly obnoxious with them etc, I doubt you'll be prosecuted for this.

[naren543]

URGENT HELP PLEASE!

 

Hi All,

 

thanks for your valuable feedbacks. I have drafted a response for TIL to avoid prosecution. Kindly give me your thoughts

 

"Thank you for your response and I appreciate that you have noted my comments. As always, I tried to make sure that I had a valid ticket before boarding any train, which in this instance was also verified by a railway officer. It is unfortunate for me that the officer has apparently misguided me to board a train where the combination ticket is not valid.

I purchased the two part return ticket for my onward journey and was assured that the journey from Leeds to Sheffield was fully paid, which shows that I had no intention to travel without paying the correct fare. However I was put to a situation where in I was given a sequence of contradicting and confusing information by railway staff from different companies.

I did produce the combination of tickets to the Revenue protection Inspector and was just seeking clarity in the situation with no objective to avoid any fare. I had never been a defaulter nor been reported before, but in this instance the situation had turned out to be that in the perspective of the Rail Company (Cross country) I had been a defaulter.

The information you had sent me did give me much clarity and guidance to avoid any future mishaps. I hereby request you to kindly consider the circumstances and issue any payment notice without taking it to prosecution. I promise that I would clear off any debts of the payment notice with earliest possible time from the date of issue."

[MrHat]

what ticket should you have had and would it have been more expensive? And by how much?

[firstclassx]

URGENT HELP PLEASE!

 

Hi All,

 

thanks for your valuable feedbacks. I have drafted a response for TIL to avoid prosecution. Kindly give me your thoughts

 

"Thank you for your response and I appreciate that you have noted my comments. As always, I tried to make sure that I had a valid ticket before boarding any train, which in this instance was also verified by a railway officer. It is unfortunate for me that the officer has apparently misguided me to board a train where the combination ticket is not valid.

I purchased the two part return ticket for my onward journey and was assured that the journey from Leeds to Sheffield was fully paid, which shows that I had no intention to travel without paying the correct fare. However I was put to a situation where in I was given a sequence of contradicting and confusing information by railway staff from different companies.

I did produce the combination of tickets to the Revenue protection Inspector and was just seeking clarity in the situation with no objective to avoid any fare. I had never been a defaulter nor been reported before, but in this instance the situation had turned out to be that in the perspective of the Rail Company (Cross country) I had been a defaulter.

The information you had sent me did give me much clarity and guidance to avoid any future mishaps. I hereby request you to kindly consider the circumstances and issue any payment notice without taking it to prosecution. I promise that I would clear off any debts of the payment notice with earliest possible time from the date of issue."

 

I would personally word it as follows:

 

============================================================================

Thank you for your recent letter concerning a ticket irregularity which occurred on xxxx at xxxx.

 

I believed, after speaking to a member of staff at xxxx station, that I was in possession of a valid combination of tickets for the journey I intended to make. I subsequently learned from the on-board staff that I had been incorrectly advised as to the availability of my combination of tickets.

 

At no point did I have any intention of committing fare evasion, and I hope you can appreciate that I fully cooperated with the railway staff who questioned me.

 

From your records, you will be able to see that I have had no previous history of travelling without a valid ticket.

 

I now realise that my combination of tickets were invalid for the journey I made, and since the incident I have ensured that I am fully compliant with the terms and conditions of my tickets.

 

If you require me to pay any outstanding fare, please let me know at your earliest convenience, so that I can make the appropriate arrangements.

============================================================================

[naren543]

@MrHat , the ticket combination seems to be not valid in any crosscountry express. the ticket fare was £9.80, i had a ticket with a value of £4.00.

 

@firstclassx , that looks great!. Thanks. A small doubt if I need to add anything else because...

 

I did send a letter earlier explaining the whole story for which they had replied stating that a summons may now be issued etc. (please see my previous posts). the reason that they have mentioned in the letter was "When asked to show a valid ticket, it is alleged that you failed to do so and that you had failed to pay the appropriate fare due in accordance with the rules in force. This left the inspector no alternative but to report the incident"

[Old-CodJA]

In most cases, if a traveller is asked to pay the fare due at the time, but refuses to do so, the inspector would report that refusal as grounds to pursue a charge of fare evasion.

[firstclassx]

From their wording, I suspect they will eventually produce a summons for you, under Railway Byelaw 18(2).

 

It will be worded to the effect:

 

You are required to appear at XXXX Magistrates' Court on XXXX to answer the following complaint:

On [date], as a passenger upon a railway, you were unable to deliver up a valid ticket or verification of validity for inspection when asked to do so by an authorised person, contrary to Railway Byelaw 18(2) as authorised by the Transport Act 2000 Section 219.2a.

 

Now, it is my opinion that you would most likely be found guilty of the strict liability Byelaw 18(2) offence and, if it was me, I would plead guilty, attend court and offer mitigation, (i.e. you had some tickets, albeit not valid in combination).

You will probably get a fine around £150-£200, costs of £100 and told to pay the rail fare owed, so between £250 and £350. The conviction would not appear on a standard CRB check, but is believed to show on an "enhanced disclosure". Therefore if you work with children, government, law enforcement, patients etc, then this could be potentially damaging.

 

It may be possible to "settle" out of court by offering somewhere in the region of £200. You will not go to court, and you will not get a criminal record. If you wish to do this then I suggest you write a cheque with a cover note stating that the funds are in full and final settlement for breaching the terms of the ticket and their administrative costs. If they cash the cheque, then that's the end of the matter, if not then you will probably have to go to court.

 

Unless you can prove that an authorised member of staff told you that you could use that ticket combination, on that train, you don't have a suitable defence to plead not guilty. "Proof" would probably have to be a witness statement from that member of staff who checked your ticket and told you what train to board.

[naren543]

Hi All,

 

I am delighted to say that the matter is now RESOLVED administratively by paying £79 to TIL.

Thanks for all your help and support. I specially would like to thank @firstclassx for his expert opinions and information.

 

Going forward one thing I would remember is not to blindly trust any official. Of course i have learnt some law and its quite and experience.

 

Cheers

 

Naren

[firstclassx]

Hi All,

 

I am delighted to say that the matter is now RESOLVED administratively by paying £79 to TIL.

Thanks for all your help and support. I specially would like to thank @firstclassx for his expert opinions and information.

 

Going forward one thing I would remember is not to blindly trust any official. Of course i have learnt some law and its quite and experience.

 

Cheers

 

Naren

 

That's great news. A lot cheaper than I expected, too!