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Another Sigma Claim Form - M+S card

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This is my journey

 

In 2009 M & S send me an application and purportedly terms and conditions on the back which they say is embodied within the agreement.

 

Collect Direct get involved, quickly disappear when I send the account in dispute letter.

 

Then Rockwell get involved who then are replaced with Credit Security who are then replaced with Fenton Cooper. They are shown the door and then Credit Security come back - keep up.

 

In 2010 M & S send another copy of the application together with different terms and conditions although they say they are the "current account terms and conditions" Both terms and conditions are illeligible.

 

They say in both letters that both terms and conditions would have been on the back. They are obviously clutching at straws as this would have been impossible.

 

On Friday I received a letter from Sigma Red Limited saying the debt had been assigned to them together with an M & S letterhead saying the account had been sold to Sigma. Both typed out by Sigma as the font on both letters is the same. Both came in the same envelope.

 

The best bit - they have put somebody else's name in both letters. The correct address, account number but just the name is different. Hilarious. What will they come up next. It is obviously a typographical error but to claim the M & S letter came from M & S when the name is wrong is shocking. Surely the assignment letter should have come from M & S and not typed up by Sigma. Do I just ignore them as far as I am concerned there is no-one at this address by that name.

 

HH

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That is strange that is exactly what happened to me my M& S debt is now with Sigma Red and in the same format a letter from M&S and Sigma but in the wrong name. Sent is back return to sender stating no one of that name lives at this address. I have had a letter back apologizing for the error but still want the money.

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Letter now received in correct name. They say my name was put on someone else's letter but no further details would have been disclosed. Still going to ignore them, they have used M & S letterhead for the assignment and signed it in someone's name purporting to be from M & S.

 

They say in one letter "sold" and in another "assigned" don't know what the difference is - either way not getting another penny out of me until they realise that sending two different terms and conditions and saying "this is the second page" does not wash with me. Fancy saying that.

 

Will keep these in my file marked "going away in the fullness of time".

 

HH

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Join the club, Lowells chasing me on M&S letterhead, CPUTR2008 letter sent.

This is DCA number 4.

My case is the one below yours has been ongoing for 3 years now, only 2 to go till SB comes into force.

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?291468-Fighting-back-with-CPUTR-2008....%282-Viewing%29-nbsp


Don\'t let the B**tards grind you down

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My position is the same regarding Sigma. I am just going to ignore them. I suspect that M&S have offloaded a stack of agreements that they know they have little chance of enforcing through the courts. Sadly, some people, as I once was, are intimitated by the prospect of debt collectors turning up on their doorstep and may start paying. They envisage these big burly men turning up on their doorstep menacingly demanding money.

 

I'm not clued up on data protection laws but it concerns me that my name will have been sent out on a letter to someone, albeit possibly in another part of the country. By inference, that person will know that I too have an outstanding debt with M&S / Sigma. Using sites such as 192, we all know that it is not that difficult to track people down.

 

Sigma have messed up here, on a large scale and I'm wondering whether there's any merit in us all complaing to the ICO.

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well you never guess what same thing happened to me....letter with another persons name on.

perhaps i got your letter...lol

and you got mine.

Anyway just another sell on for pennys.

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I have my own MS thread, and also contributing to another, but couldn't resist joining in ... guess what yes another Sigma transferee .. guess what ... wrong name on my letter too, which is the 2nd time round.

 

First was in Jan, I ignored, but the lady who must have got my name must have complained, as I recd a letter of apology with a 2nd copy of the orig letter, this time with my name correct.

 

Recd a 2nd letter today, with the same lady's name as the first time as the addressee ... its hilarious !!!!!!!

 

I did think there was just a mix up on our 2 accounts, but obviously its a widespread fault in their system .. made my day finding this thread ... !!!

 

Oh by the way, if like me, you were an old store account - automatically tsfd to the credit card, the cca they have sent you is for the store card and has no link or relevance to the current ccard you have. They tried to argue the OFT told them they could do this without the issue and signing of a new CCA, which is absolute balls, as the OFT threatned to fine them, and made them stop the practice ...

 

They also tried to say to me the t&cs were on the back of the app (thats the app for the store card, not the ccard they are trying to collect on), but the silly billy's had already sent me the front and back copy of the app at first request, and the back was clearly a pre-paid MS return address for sending the app off for processing .... doh !!! They were a bit stuck for words when I reminded them of that ...

 

Then they said that the prescribed terms don't have to be in the CCA (in my case also the application form), but can be in any document they choose them to be in, of which I would have been provided with a copy ....... you have to give them credit for trying ... the little buggers - they don't learn do they !!

 

Now after (in my case) 3 yrs and 7 different DCAs, poor Sigma have been landed with both mine and apparently a load of other unenfoceable MS debts, that were unlawfully sold under OFT regs, as they were subject of a dispute at the time of sale .... all together now ... poor, poor Sigma ... and naughty, naughty M&S ... !!!!

 

Abs x

Edited by Abby25

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Ah just found this thread during a dull moment when I thought I'd find out more about Sigma Red and HL Legal. I'm another one who got letters adressed to the wrong person- must be one of thousands. Bit of an expensive cock-up, eh Sigma?!! Funnily enough, the people mine were addressed to live only a few doors away, so Sigma may well be on a sticky wicket here so far as data protection/confidentiality goes.

 

Eventually later in January I got the apology letter and my correct name and account details- no surprises mine are in dispute M&S accounts from over three years ago too :) After a couple of months, i have now got the first rent-a-letter from HL Legal. Have had a hunch from the outset looking at the wording of these letters, that all they have is a name and an amount to chase, nothing else, hoping they ocassionally get lucky.

 

Looking at comments on here and elsewhere, it's clear that Sigma has been flogged a load of old turkeys...poor, poor old Sigma, do hope you guys didn't pay too much for all this old useless junk :)))

 

There's the usual [muted] threat of legal action in the HL letter, of course, and I anticipate the usual 12 weeks of a series of letters now, at increasing levels of desparation trying to make me pay them at least a few quid as FFS. Well they can take a running jump and I could [as any of us I'm sure] of course stop them in their tracks with a simple prove it letter, but I'm not sure its worth the 50p for a stamp. Maybe at another dull moment, I'll decide to do that and give them more work [and expense], but for now, their letters are going straight into my big folder marked 'SILLY B*****DS' :))))

Edited by SkemDosser

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H L did get involved but ignored them to, the usual this is how much it is going to cost you ie court fees and solicitor's fees but we may give you a discount if you contact us. Dont want to waste a stamp on them so filing it under "they haven't got a hope in hell's chance of receiving money off me file".

 

Sigma messing up with names has also been mentioned on another thread. I really wonder how many they have messed up with.

 

HH

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Hi Hammy

The appalling thing is quite a few people fall for these approaches from bottom-feeding dca's; it's disgusting that firms like this prey on people at their most vulnerable to make a few quid for themselves [i assume they make enough to keep going otherwise they wouldn't be in business doing it]. Basically, they have nothing but a name, address, account number and amount to chase [and in Sigma's case they can't even get all of that right]. It's similar to someone coming up to you in the town centre one afternoon, and saying to you that for a few quid they've bought a list of accounts from a bank, have seen that you used to owe bank x a certain amount of money, and they now want you to pay some of outstanding amount to them please, and here's an account number to pay it into.

 

The other appalling thing is that this is [semi] legal. Of course the OC shouldn't flog on accounts in dispute, and dca's shouldn't chase outstanding credit that they have absolutely no paperwork for, but they do, and the system turns a blind eye to it. In the end, it means those with the least money, have even more cash squeezed out of them to satisfy sharks like Sigma et al. With places like CAG more people are informed now and less likely to fall for the ruses of these dca's, but still too many get frightened [through being uninformed] and try to pay something. We have to keep spreading the word so those numbers of the uninformed keeps shrinking and shrinking...

 

I'm still perplexed though by this particular case with Sigma. They seem to have bought a load of off-loaded M&S accounts dating from over 3 years old. I would imagine most of those are in dispute and therefore not being paid. As such, I would imagine most of the people with the disputed accounts will be in the informed camp, and as such won't be intimidated by the threats of these comedians. So why they bought them in the first place is beyond me....perhaps some exec who is the least brightest bulb in the box thought it a good idea one Friday afternoon after a few lunchtime Chardonnays. Whatever, with the address fiasco, Sigma appear to be amidst one huge operational breakdown and the least we can do is garner some consolation that it is no doubt costing them a lot more to see it through than it is us :)

Edited by SkemDosser

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Crumbs, Sigma must have been busy in the last couple of days I have also received a split claim POC.

 

Can I just check, acknowledge on line, request CPR documents and then put in a defence or do I just acknowledge and throw in the defence straight away.

 

Do you have to send a CPR letter to ask for documents these days.

 

HH

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Have you read Bambinaia's thread on this very same subject and Cupcakes? Send CPR31.14 request and perhaps CPR18. I think the temptation to pay the small claim (£300 in my case) will only let them set up and claim for the balance. I will be defending based on the original store card (M&S) agreement being unenforceable, card was then upgraded (again unenforceable in my opinion) and several dud Default Notices. Also transferring the account whilst in dispute. Hopefully when they get my letter and see my defence they will chuck the towel in sooner rather than later.


My opinions are not expressed as an agent or representative of The Consumer Action Group. My advice is given freely but please remember to always seek professional advice from a qualified legal adviser before acting. If I have helped you please feel free to click on the black star below.

 

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That's what is developing as my preferred course of action Pumpkinhead. Abby's thread is interesting though, with her achieving a stay first...worth thinking about. Amongst other things, there is also the simple case of Sigma's notice of assignment being defective... :-)

 

Whatever, bit rusty at this and getting back up to speed. Can we go straight in with CPR though, for such a small claims amount? I seem to remember something about having to get it tracked to another court first....

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Thanks guys, will send CPR and complete AOS. HL must have sent out hundreds if not thousands of these claim forms in the last few days mostly claiming £299. Have already received agreement which I think is unenforceable and no default notice.

 

Skem how is Sigma's notice of assignment defective. Is it because their letter and M & S's letter were both in the same envelope!

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It swings on s136 of the Law and Property Act- as Sigma are bringing the court action they are acting with absolute assignment of the debt from M&S to them. In order to make this fullly legally effective, the notice must be sent to you directly from the OC and by recorded delivery. It is therefore up to the DCA to prove the correct notice was sent to you AND signed for by you.

 

OCs and DCAs never do this. I assume because to do so would make visible to you the exact details of the assignment [if of course it fully exists in the first place] and let you know how little money the DCA actually paid for your account, often only a few pence in the pound.

 

On this one point of law, the DCA- in this case Sigma- doesn't have a right to pursue legal action in the first place. I also think their pursuit of interest only at a rate they set on the debt opens a whole can of worms for them too under s82A of the CCA 1974. They are effectively changing the terms of the original agreement, which is outlawed by that clause. To say nothing of the fact that they are pre-empting a court judgement by setting the interest clock running from the point of their 'assignment,' not a judgement, and I can't see a judge taking very kindly to that :)

 

Sigma are mucking about here seeing what they can shake out of hundreds of £15 court fees in the form of uncontested judgements. Shout boo at them and I reckon they'll scuttle away. I just hope enough people are informed enough to do so, so that it proves to be a very costly exercise for them, because they are clearly not only one of the dodgier outfits in the industry [a very realtive term in the world of dcas I know lol], but also not one of the brightest :)

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Thanks Skem now understand, the funny thing is the M & S assignment letter has been printed by Sigma and was sent in the same envelope as their letter. Shot themselves in the foot there.

 

I do hope more people come on here to these threads as I get the impression if someone is not clued up, think £299 I'll pay that I owe far more then bang another claim arrives. I did think for one minute they had made a mistake until I saw "part agreement" Their actions are disgraceful.

 

I am sure someone will come along in a few weeks and say "I paid this but got another claim".

 

Will keep my thread updated as and when I hear anything.

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Yep I’m sure it’s the same with everyone hammy- a letter on M&S headed paper [probably typed up by some bod at Sigma] attached to a cover letter sent ordinary post by Sigma itself. This is standard practise for all OCs/DCAs- for obviously quite important self-interested reasons they clearly always avoid carrying out the process in strict accordance with the law.

 

Doing a bit of crystal ball gazing and having tracked this Sigma business since the New Year, I reckon sometime in 2011, some bright spark at Sigma thought it was a good idea to buy thousands of three-four year old defaulted accounts from M&S in a bargain bucket sale. For a few pence in the pound, all they got was an account number, a name and address, and a balance. M&S I strongly suspect then told them ‘here’s your lot at a knockdown price, and don’t come back to us: you pays your money, you takes your chances,’ and that was that.

 

Now any sane person would judge that many of these accounts will be in dispute and therefore attached to relatively clued up people; either Sigma knew this and decided to take a punt anyway, or [more likely I reckon] they didn’t have a clue they were being sold a load of old turkeys.

 

In Jan/Feb they then tried to contact everybody but cocked that up big time, getting their address database all mixed up and sending thousands of those first letters to the wrong people!! [This for me is a clear sign that they have very little proper account management and info on the accounts, and everything is being bulk automated as much as possible].

 

Eventually they have decided to take a shot at a dodgy business model to see what they can claw back from all of this. On paper it makes sense- for a £15 punt they have the chance to get £350 back. On that basis if my mental maths is right all they need is one person in 23 to pay in full, and all the other 23 court fees are covered. Get more than 1 in 23 to pay up, and you are moving into profit.

That’s why I am almost certain that Sigma has no intention of going anywhere near contested court proceedings. They’ll back off as soon as they get a whiff of a serious contestation, because quite simply they have no proper paperwork or assignment to produce.

 

I’ve read here and elsewhere a couple of people floating the idea of paying the amount and then treating it as done and dusted and contesting any return claim as illegal, but personally I really, really wouldn’t advise anyone to do that for three reasons:

 

1] Why pay someone that from out of the blue, demands £300 from you through a court order, with no paperwork or proof of the debt being owed to them by you? This is like some bloke in the street coming up to you, and telling you for a few quid he’d just bought a few account numbers from your bank and yours is one of them, and now you must pay him £300 or else. No one would accept that, would they, and this situation really is in principle no different from that.

 

2] As you say hammy, I would guarantee that once this dodgy interest claim is paid, Sigma will immediately pile in with a claim for the full balance. And any payee will have immediately to my mind put themselves on the back foot, regardless of second claim ‘legalities.’ You’ve effectively acknowledged the debt by agreeing to pay interest on it, so how can you now argue that you don’t owe the balance?

 

3] By paying the claim, you are effectively vindicating Sigma’s business model. If they make a success of it, they will continue to use this appalling way to [illegally] obtain money from the already financially troubled, as will other dcas if they see it as a reasonably profitable technique. It needs to be nipped in the bud, now.

 

So let’s all take firm action on this- tell Sigma the account is in dispute and as such it shouldn’t have been assigned in the first place and hit them full on with appropriate CPR. Have a succinct defence lined up if they are daft enough not to stay and continue the action [which I personally very much doubt they will].

 

And spread the word as much as possible about this form of dca action, telling as many people as possible not to fall for it :-) It’s a despicable way to do business, but of course in DCA Land there is no such thing as business self-respect and regard for the law, so they need to be firmly faced down.

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Hi Skemdosser In reply to your earlier post replying to mine you ask whether or not we can use CPR due to the small amount in question. I've checked and we can use CPR31.14 but not a CPR part 18 request. The CPR18 can be refused if the sum involved is less than £5,000 with the Claimant making reference to CPR27.2(f) and saying that it doesn't apply.

 

Also in your Post 5 you refer to their interest only claim and "the amount of interest they've set" or words to that effect. I wonder if they are trying to use the Late Payment of Commercial Debts (Interest) Act which allows for 8% to be added to the relevant reference period. Just a thought.

 

Another bit to add, remembering that Sigma is claiming for " part only of monies due" I've heard some people on similar threads talking about this being a split claim. However, it isn't a split claim until and unless the claimant goes for the remainder or any more of the total outstanding monies. The partial claim approach may be considered an abuse of process and frowned on by the Solicitors Regulation Authority and I've also heard it referred to as morally unethical but I'm not convinced it makes in itself a suitably robust defence.

Edited by Pumpkinhead
Additional comments added

My opinions are not expressed as an agent or representative of The Consumer Action Group. My advice is given freely but please remember to always seek professional advice from a qualified legal adviser before acting. If I have helped you please feel free to click on the black star below.

 

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Just for point of info, CPR 31.14 and CPR 18 are BOTH not allowed under small claims (less than 5k) **However** as the claim has yet to be allocated to a claims track its untracked and as such ALL CPR is available until such time.

 

They will usually respond stating they feel the claim will more than likely be under small claims and as such will not respond to CPR31.14 or CPR18 but it doesnt hurt to ask.

 

S.


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From the HMcourts website:-

 

31.1

(1) This Part sets out rules about the disclosure and inspection of documents.

(2) This Part applies to all claims except a claim on the small claims track.


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The CAG is a free help site,should you be offered help that requires payment,please report it to site team.

 

Deal with your debts:

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IMPORTANT: Please take my advice in the spirit it is given and on the basis that I am expressing my opinion, These opinions are not endorsed by CAG in anyway and are offered informally without prejudice or warranty of any kind. These opinions are solely based upon the knowledge I've gained from this fantastic site and life in general. I have NO legal training.

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I'm thinking about a belt and braces approach to this. Tell Sigma the account is in dispute but also send a formal CCA request to them. In parallel acknowledge the claim form and submit CPR. They may say they haven't any need to reply to this but if they take this tack its a further strong indication that they have very little in the way of effective documentation and I've also seen them back track under such requests by stating they have to go back to the OC for further info, effectively confirming that they have no proper paper work.

 

When they default on the CCA request after 14 days [which is a 99% certainty], hit them with a CPUTR request. In the meanwhile have your [succinct] defence ready to bang in towards the end of the 28 days. To my mind a key point of that defence is that the assignment was not served legally, and so the claimant has no right to bring action in the first place.

 

In other words pile on the pressure [and work] for the claimant. Keep on the front foot. I strongly suspect they will despite perhaps some initial posturing, quickly collapse like a house of cards and scuttle off in search of easier prey as the last thing they want to do is go anywhere near formal court proceedings with such a dodgy claim.

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Hi Pumpkinhead thanks for that-I've been able to get back up to speed today with a lot of stuff and the gloves are now firmly back on :-)

 

It's a good point about this not being a split claim, but is actually a partial claim. I understand the SRA are not enamoured by such actions and I don't think if it got anywhere near a DJ he/she would be either, particularly as its an interest only claim, pre-empting any judgement by the court. I'm pretty sure doing so also falls foul of s82A of the CCA as well. In fact all in all its a very dodgy way to proceed claims-wise and I'm sure Sigma knows this; they are trying it on with a 'who blinks first' approach and hoping for a few people to pay in full to make up for their gamble on court costs I reckon,knowing full wellthta if they get challenged they'll just discontinue and move on to who they hope are less clued up.

 

Your point on the Late payment of Commercial Debts [interest] Act isinteresting...will look further into that.

 

Yep CPR can be pursued straightaway because the claim is of course trackless until the AQ- although as Shadow rightly pointed out, the DCA may try to be awkward over it but if they are, that tells a story in its own right. I've seen them say things like 'we are not obliged to show you any evidence through CPR and we are confident regardless that we have adequate documentation to obtain a ruling against you' whilst a few lines before effectively admitting they have nothing. Well good luck with that guys :)

 

Like I said in my other post- take a belt and braces approach. Maintain the initiative and allow them no wriggle room whatsoever. I have a hunch the likes of Sigma will then capitulate sooner rather than later.

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Just for point of info, CPR 31.14 and CPR 18 are BOTH not allowed under small claims (less than 5k) **However** as the claim has yet to be allocated to a claims track its untracked and as such ALL CPR is available until such time.

 

They will usually respond stating they feel the claim will more than likely be under small claims and as such will not respond to CPR31.14 or CPR18 but it doesnt hurt to ask.

 

S.

 

 

Is this why they ignored my CPR requests?

 

These gits have raised two summons on me and I have nothing to prove what I owe, how much I owe or that the debt exists and that they have any claim to it.

 

If they do not have to respond to CPR ho can I see evidence of what they claim i owe them?

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Is this why they ignored my CPR requests?

 

These gits have raised two summons on me and I have nothing to prove what I owe, how much I owe or that the debt exists and that they have any claim to it.

 

If they do not have to respond to CPR ho can I see evidence of what they claim i owe them?

 

They should respond if just to say they will not respond with full info etc, have you tried contacting them JUST about the CPR request, dont be drawn on anything else. A judge would want to see that you have tried to obtain the information and chased not that you sent a letter and forgot about it.

 

In any event You can issue a defence that states exactly that, when the Allocation questionaire comes you can try and get disclosure via the G- extra information bit or just wait till you sit in front of a judge and state that the claimant has refused to give any further information other than the PoC's.

 

S.


Are You as Anonymous on CAG as You Think You Are? *Link*

 

The CAG is a free help site,should you be offered help that requires payment,please report it to site team.

 

Deal with your debts:

STEP ONE - Dont Panic! | STEP TWO - Priority & Non Priority Debts | STEP THREE - Personal Budget Sheet | STEP FOUR - A SAFE bank Account | STEP FIVE - Dealing with Priority Debts | STEP SIX - Non-priority Debts | STEP SEVEN - Non-Priority Debt-Repayment Opt1 | STEP EIGHT - Non-Priority Debt-Repayment Opt2 | STEP NINE - Perils of Consolidation | STEP TEN - RE-Evaluate Frequently

 

***** SERIOUSLY IN DEBT, DONT KNOW WHAT TO DO, TRY NationalDebtLine's MoneySteps *****

 

 

IMPORTANT: Please take my advice in the spirit it is given and on the basis that I am expressing my opinion, These opinions are not endorsed by CAG in anyway and are offered informally without prejudice or warranty of any kind. These opinions are solely based upon the knowledge I've gained from this fantastic site and life in general. I have NO legal training.

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