Car Impounded by police

[afcwben]

My son got pulled over by the police for exceeding the speed limit and it turned out he had missed renewing his photo driving licence. The police have therefore impounded his car. He has to apply for a renewal which could take 3 weeks to arrive. My question is there any way his car can be taken out of the impound. My insurance company will not provide insurance for this specific requirement. In the meantime my son could rack up huge storage fees. Any advice gratefully welcomed

[BRIGADIER2JCS]

Sounds odd to me the usual grounds for seizure are no insurance,tax or mot.

[afcwben]

The police stated as te driving licence was expired then te insurance is invalid

[BRIGADIER2JCS]

The police stated as te driving licence was expired then te insurance is invalid

 

That seems a flimsy technicality the licence, was just that the photo

had to be renewed but the actual licence was still valid?

[afcwben]

That seems a flimsy technicality the licence, was just that the photo

had to be renewed but the actual licence was still valid?

 

Is it? I thought they were tied together so the paper licence is valid until you are 70?

 

so if a photo driving llicence has expired does that mean you are not allowed to drive as the paper one is till valid?

[BRIGADIER2JCS]

The paper and the photo card are one licence, the photo on

the photocard has to be periodically updated as the driver ages,

every 10 years I think and when the driver reaches 70.

[havinastella]

Ben, get your son to ring his insurance to ask the question!

 

This is popping up alot recently as the first round of photocards are expiring!

 

Jogs

[BRIGADIER2JCS]

Just checked the My Driving Licence site the photocard licence

has to be renewed every 10 years and a new photo added.

 

Yes insurance is invalid.

 

To get the car back another qualified driver insured to

drive the vehicle can I think retrieve it on payment of the

fees accrued to date, must have all documentary proof.

[cerberusalert]

http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/cars/article-2081666/Driving-licence-trap-1-6m-drivers-risk-hefty-fine-renewing-photograph-20-cost.html

[havinastella]

There is no impact on your car insurance as long as the driver has not been disqualified or told not to drive by the DVLA (due to a medical issue, for example).

Read more: http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/cars/article-2081666/Driving-licence-trap-1-6m-drivers-risk-hefty-fine-renewing-photograph-20-cost.html#ixzz1zfFp5gaz

[havinastella]

Time to sue the police for theft

[afcwben]

My son has been in the station arguing about this but they refuse to release his car. I think they are not backing down because they have made a mistake

[havinastella]

I have just spoken to my insurers (Admiral)

 

It does NOT invalidate your insurance. If I were you I'd get him to double check with his own insurers and then escalate the matter at the police Station.

[Bang!]

Its amazing when the police are so happy to decline to act on what they are happy to distort into civil issues they now seem to have become experts on contract law. Fair enough - car insurance (or an alternative) is required by ?s143 & 144? of the RTA - but the conditions for that insurance are contractual.

 

Ben, get your son to ring his insurance to ask the question!

 

This is popping up alot recently as the first round of photocards are expiring!

 

Jogs

 

 

Its likely to be mentioned on the certificate of motor insurance - which if contradicting the police gives you a document to show to them that they are used to seeing via HORTIIs.

 

The normally state something along the lines of...

 

Persons or classes of persons entitled to drive (Provided that the

person holds a licence to drive the vehicle or has held and is not disqualified from holding such

a licence)

 

So from that its entirely clear an out of date picture would not invalidate insurance. (That's taken from my insurance doc which is sitting on the PC as a PDF).

 

Additionally - there has been a member of CAG has already had a letter from his insurers to take to court to show he was insured in exactly the same circumstances.

 

Just checked the My Driving Licence site the photocard licence

has to be renewed every 10 years and a new photo added.

 

Yes insurance is invalid.

 

To get the car back another qualified driver insured to

drive the vehicle can I think retrieve it on payment of the

fees accrued to date, must have all documentary proof.

 

If the certificate of insurance states the same as the one I listed (and most do), then the car is insured and so the driver can pick it up himself. Again if this is the case, then the police are obviously not entitled to a penny for their malfeasance, but the wronged party obviously would be.

 

Time to sue the police for theft

 

Theft is covered by s6 of the Theft Act 1968, and requires the mens rea of "With the intention of permanently depriving the other of it" - so its not theft (in England, and very unlikely to be in Scotland).

 

However, it would be a malfeasance if there was still a valid insurance policy in force.

[afcwben]

Thanks for all your replies, at the end of the day the police seem to act as if they have no understanding o the law or demonstrate a complete lack of ability to intepret it correctly. No matter who my son has spoken to at the Police Station they are adamant an out of date photocard invalidates your insurance. He has been told to get his insurance to confirm he will be covered under section 88.

 

Anyone understand this?

Edited July 4, 2012 by afcwben

[Bang!]

Firstly, you really need to start doing this in writing, as suddenly you may find none of it happened at all. (Alternately tape calls).

 

S88 is about licences and not insurance as they claimed for the reason re holding the car. Basically s87 states a person must have a licence, and s88 tells the exceptions when a person does not need to have a licence but is entitled to be treated as if they had one.

 

So effectively the police are asking for your insurance company to state your son is covered by an exception to driving without a licence, which obviously is impossible/irrelevant/complete rubbish as insurance companies being able to check licences in real time is not being introduce until shortly in the future (you will list your licence number when applying for insurance, and it will reveal your convictions automatically as 25% of people purported lie).

 

The police can check if you have a licence on their computer obviously, but I am now guessing this wont highlight if a picture has been updated timeously.

 

Returning to what I mentioned above, if the police have stated they will be happy if shown s88 can be complied with - and has already stated it to be an insurance issue - THEN LOOK OUT THE COVER NOTE/CERT. OF INSURANCE AND SEE WHAT IT SAYS, as this will show your entitlement to insurance on the vehicle.

 

There is very little to look through - here is the entire (edited) content from mine...

 

1. Registration mark of vehicle:

a) XXXXX

b) Any motor car temporarily supplied to the policy holder by the Insurer's approved repairer

or hire company as a direct result of damage covered by and claimed for under this

policy.

 

2. Policyholder

Mr AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

 

3. Effective date for the start of insurance (for the purposes of the relevant law)

00:00 on DATE 2011

 

4. Date of expiry

23:59 on DATE 2012

 

5. Persons or classes of persons entitled to drive (Provided that the

person holds a licence to drive the vehicle or has held and is not disqualified from holding such

a licence)

 

Mr AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

 

Ms BBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBB

Ms CCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCC

 

Mr AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA is also insured to drive with the owner's consent any motor car not

belonging to him and not hired to him under a hire purchase or lease agreement and provided

that the motor car is being used within the limitations listed below. This cover is restricted to

Third Party Liability only.

 

6. Limitations as to use.

This car is insured while being used for social, domestic and pleasure purposes only. There will

be no cover if the car is used for commuting between home and work, for racing, speed trials

or rallies or for any business purpose or any use for hire or reward. There will also be no cover

if this car is used in connection with the motor trade. Any cover you have for loss or damage to

your car continues while the car is being serviced

 

Term 5 basically is very similar to s88.

[Bang!]

Ms BBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBB & Ms CCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCC are ma bitches!!! :D:D:D:D

[Michael Browne]

The driving licence trap: 1.6m drivers at risk of £1,000 fine for not renewing photo at £20 a time

 

The research also revealed that the vast majority of drivers are unaware of the true consequences of having an expired photograph on their driving licence.

 

Just 29 per cent know that it could make you liable for a £1,000 fine. However, almost a third (31 per cent) of drivers incorrectly said they thought it could invalidate your motor insurance and 27 per cent thought it could mean getting points on your licence.

 

Interestingly, 13 per cent of drivers thought it could result in your car being confiscated.

Read more: http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/cars/article-2081666/Driving-licence-trap-1-6m-drivers-risk-hefty-fine-renewing-photograph-20-cost.html#ixzz1zflf8700

 

 

[afcwben]

After doing a bit more research, I discovered my sons potocard had expired over two years ago, it seems if this is the case then your total licence becomes invalid. It is wierd if you do not apply for a photocard that is not a problem, but if you do then it changes the whole game

[crem]

After doing a bit more research, I discovered my sons potocard had expired over two years ago, it seems if this is the case then your total licence becomes invalid. It is wierd if you do not apply for a photocard that is not a problem, but if you do then it changes the whole game

 

I'm not aware of this rule. Where did you find it?

[Aretnap]

Driving while unlicensed is grounds for a s165A seizure, regardless of the car's insurance status.

 

However, my understanding is that the offence you commit by not renewing your photocard is under Section 99(2A) of the RTA - failure to surrender a licence. The actual licence remains in force even if the photocard is not surrendered. It's similar to failure to inform the DVLA of a change of address - it's an offence certainly but not one which affects your entitlement to drive.

[stu007]

Hi

 

Well this is very interesting as my own licence photo expires in Dec so me being me contacted DVLA to ask the procedure and I was informed by DVLA not to worry as the forward a reminder letter with the application form one month before it expires.

 

OK me thinks so few days later am at the post office and for some reason mentioned my licnce photo expiring and explained what DVLA had said. The post office counter staff immediatly handed me an application for and said complete this as soon as you can and send it off as DVLA have a habit of saying one thing on the phone and doing the opposite. This was followed by oh yes they send reminders out well you may get the reminder but by the time you get it and by the time you have completed it and forwarded it back they recieve it just past the expiry date and boom free money for DVLA with a £1000 fine for it being late.

 

I did question this a bit more and ultimately it would come down to you over DVLA and they will either say you applied late photo expired or it is you the driving licence holders responsibility to ensure your hole driving licence is up to date and not expired.

 

When I left and from what I have being hearing about this saga recently my own has been filled in and sent off (Special Delivery) dont want DVLA to have an excuse the did not recieve it mind you that was a month ago and still no letter from DVLA as you are suppose to get to cover you while you await your new licence in case you are stopped by the Police you produce DVLA covering letter.

[SMC1989]

Just to add clarity to this matter (apologies if it's already answered).

 

The DVLA request police systems be updated with this information. Yes technically if a photo card has expired it does expire the license. On a temp basis until resolved.

 

The RTA offences committed are technically driving other than in accordance with a license and subsequently driving without valid insurance.

 

To get the car released any other driver whose license covers the class of vehicle and also whose insurance will allow the use of the vehicle can collect it after the elvis form has been endorsed.

 

Has he been fined, summonsed or HORT/1?

[havinastella]

Just to add clarity to this matter (apologies if it's already answered).

 

The DVLA request police systems be updated with this information. Yes technically if a photo card has expired it does expire the license. On a temp basis until resolved.

 

The RTA offences committed are technically driving other than in accordance with a license and subsequently driving without valid insurance.

 

To get the car released any other driver whose license covers the class of vehicle and also whose insurance will allow the use of the vehicle can collect it after the elvis form has been endorsed.

 

Has he been fined, summonsed or HORT/1?

 

How can you be driving without insurance when the Insurance Company say you are insured?!

[Aretnap]

Yes technically if a photo card has expired it does expire the license.

I don't think that's correct. Let's look at the actual statute.

 

99 Duration of licences.

(1)In so far as a licence authorises its holder to drive motor vehicles of classes other than any prescribed class of goods vehicle or any prescribed class of passenger-carrying vehicle, it shall, unless previously revoked or surrendered, remain in force, subject to subsection (2) below—

(a)except in a case falling within paragraph (b) or © of this subsection, for the period ending on the seventieth anniversary of the applicant’s date of birth or for a period of three years, whichever is the longer,

(b)except in a case falling within paragraph © of this subsection, if the Secretary of State so determines in the case of a licence to be granted to a person appearing to him to be suffering from a relevant or prospective disability, for such period of not more than three years and not less than one year as the Secretary of State may determine, and

©in the case of a licence granted in exchange for a subsisting licence and in pursuance of an application requesting a licence for the period authorised by this paragraph, for a period equal to the remainder of that for which the subsisting licence was granted,

and any such period shall begin with the date on which the licence in question is expressed to come into force.

So the licence itself remains valid until your seventieth birthday, unless you are given one with a shorter duration for medical reasons.

 

Subsection 1A deals with goods vehicles and PCV licences. Subsection 2 deals with provisional motorbike licences.

 

(2A)Where, in accordance with the preceding provisions of this section, a licence in the form of a photocard remains in force for a period of more than ten years, the holder of the licence must surrender it and its counterpart to the Secretary of State not later than the end of the period of ten years beginning with—

(a)the date shown on the licence as the date of its issue, or

(b)if the licence was granted by way of renewal or replacement of a licence bearing the same photograph, the date shown on the earliest licence bearing that photograph as the date of issue of that licence.

So a photocard licence can remain in force for more than 10 years, but you are required to surrender (ie renew) it after 10 years. But in accordance with subsection 1 it remains in force if not surrendered.

 

Subsections 3 and 3A allow licences to be revoked in certain circumstances, and don't concern us here.

 

Subsection 4 requires you to surrender your licence if your name and or address change. Again this does not mean that the licence becomes invalid.

 

(5)A person who without reasonable cause fails to comply with the duty under subsection (2A)(3) or (4) above is guilty of an offence.

So you commit an offence by failing to surrender your licence when the photocard expires unless you have a reasonable excuse. However your entitlement to drive remains in place until you are 70 regardless, and failure to renew the photocard does not affect this any more than failing to inform the DVLA of a change of address does. Therefore there is no offence of driving otherwise than in accordance with a licence, or by extension of driving without insurance.