Employment Appeal Tribunal: How to establish points of Law grounds

[Emmzzi]

For a case of more than 3 days there's no way it is fair to ask people to help by PM - they deserve payment for their time too! Also you do not know the qualifications of anyone here. And if a no-win no-fee wonlt take you on, your chances are not that good.

 

We're on page 2 and I have no idea what your actual case was about. Please do not tell me - I do not care, you do not listen to advice!

 

I stand by my intial assessmrnt of *rambling* and *unable to express the point clearly.*

 

I *think* you are contesting a redundancy. And I would have told you at the outset not to bother, because the employer can manipulate those selection criteria any way they like to make it look legal. Unless you are pregnant, there is no point trying, it just takes up your energy when you need to be job hunting!

 

You've had your day in court and not only did you blow it, you accessed the judge of bias. Judges talk to and support each other unless it;s HUGE misdemeanor - which this isn't! What do you think your odds are of taking this personal vendetta further with any success?

 

Drop it. Move on. Live your life.

[assisted blonde]

Having read and re read all of the comments and questions I have to agree with a previous posting that it would appear that the judge has been polite in his comments, but he is saying that the case was not presented clearly and that he has not found in your favour.

It is not a good move to accuse a judge of bias as you want him on your side

All in all I agree yoyu have had your day in court, blown it and if you want to appeal you will need a good solicitor not free advice from this forum.

[ms_smith]

It is most frustrating when people direct people to lawyers without a caveat. Lawyers are not free and free lawyers are not easy to get to take up a case of up to 25 days hearing. Most free lawyers are interested in cases lasting no more than 3 days. If you are willing to offer your service that would be a great help. If not it would be good to receive your kind contribution through my private message or through this open forum.

 

Tell me about them lawyers... Such is life, I am afraid.

 

This is a case that the Judge stated during the first day of the hearing that nobody was permitted to record the hearing in any electronic media and that it was a criminal offence if the hearing was recorded. He said people are free to make written notes if they so wish. What is the judge afraid of? At the Courts every comments is recorded and people can request for transcript. Now only what the Judge has written count and even if the Claimant is the best orator nobody can tell. This is just simply unfair!

 

I'm afraid you're wrong. Section 9 of the Contempt of Court Act 1981 says one cannot record the hearing with any recording gadget unless allowed by the court. Court hearings are not a press conference. That's why you will see lawyers and judges themselves taking notes.

But I am not gonna blame you for not knowing that. You have the right to be wrong.

 

The Employment Judge was told to his face in the open Tribunal, after blatant persecution and oppression against the Claimant, that the EJ was biased by the Claimant. The Claimant then requested from the Judge permission to take the adverse decision to the EAT. The Judge told him he should make the application himself. Once again those reasons provided by the Judge came after the Claimant told him that the Tribunal was biased.

 

I see there were loads of emotions there, but I also see the judge being very calm. Which is good.

You see, it is not enough for them to be told they're biased. They won't take it. Everything depends on your case details. Can you provide some of here?

If you still believe they were wrong, fight for it.

I know judges tend to undermine unrepresented claimants and judge them too quickly. Been through it myself. But hey! They are only people - after all, they need to be presented with argument so that they can choose which one they think is right. The public tends to make assumptions that judges know everything. No, they don't.

 

One thing I know of many English Judges, as I go to Court and Tribunal more frequently, is their command of using language to obfuscate the truth. Not surprising that the Judge had written comments that on the face of it looks like the Claimant was not making any sense. But when justice is not seen to be fair it created animosity within the civil society which many failed to understand.

 

I have to say, when I go through some judgements (not only from ETs), I wonder: is the judge trying to protect his own interest (by pretending not to have spotted the obvious winner), or is he/she really so dumb?

 

My reading of those comments indicate to me that the Judge came with a predetermined mind. I cannot understand how a Judge can arrive at a “firm evidence” from one side alone (Respondents 1 and 2) to the case when the judge is also stating that he was not making a final finding?

 

This is the first case I have seen where a Judge refused names of comparators to be known because the Counsel said that to the Tribunal revealing the names would lead to the Claimant knowing pay data and personal matter in the disclosed bundle. It seemed that the Judge has not written the complete truth. Pay data, promotional history and training data including qualifications of the comparators were the requests made by the Claimant which were refused by the Judge as they were not initially disclosed by the Respondents. I think it was just a red herring by the judge as he knows most judges dont have the luxury of time to read 8 archival files!

 

Did you claim whatever you base your need on to provide other comparators' details in the first place? What were your claims for?

Edited July 8, 2012 by ms_smith

[BRIGADIER2JCS]

I have followed this without much comment, and I cannot

see any reason for an assumption that the tribunal has shown

bias.

 

As someone used to unravelling evidence/submissions my feeling

is that the overlong and seemingly garbled statements left the judge

little choice and the tribunal found logically and sensibly on this matter.

[Sokoto]

ms_smith,

 

Your comments were very reassuring and balanced.

 

With reference to the comments of recording: The EJ stated that the Tribunal was not subjected to the Court and CPR Rules except I believe he mentioned rule 60. He said the Tribunal has its own rule totally different from what is followed by the Court. In the Court you can request for Transcript so that any conduct/misdemeanour of a Judge can easily be identified and where necessary escalated to the appropriate channel for redress.

 

At the PHR the Employer was ordered to open up documents. When this order was not complied with the Claimant wrote the Tribunal that the employer refused to comply and requested for another CMD/PHR. The Employer Lawyer firmly objected that it would be disproportionate. The Tribunal then responded that during the substantive hearing the issue should be raised. The Tribunal then overruled the order at the PHR. When the Claimant found out all the evidence he required to prove his case was being refused or over rule he made that comments that the Tribunal were biased.

 

The case: Racial Discrimination as one head and Unfair Dismissal as the other head. RR65 was completed requesting information such as training, promotion and pay data for comparators. The Employer refused to provide answers to these questions and other crucial information to help the Claimant formulate his case more effectively. They only responded to questions that appeared to help their case.

 

When the Claimant wrote the tribunal for the Employer to respond to those crucial information they refused to respond to, the Employer responded back to the Tribunal that they were fully aware for providing evasive answers. In the information they disclosed they refused to disclose names of Comparators but instead provided several codes for each question relating to Comparators so that you cannot identify any comparator or find any trend. For instance Comparator named as Code 11 does not uniquely tie that code to a comparator but only to that question. Code 11 in another question is another Comparator. So you can not form any unique information from Comparator Code 11.

[becky2585]

The employer is under no legal obligation to answer a Discrimination Questionnaire, which is probably why the Judge refused your request.

[ms_smith]

With reference to the comments of recording: The EJ stated that the Tribunal was not subjected to the Court and CPR Rules except I believe he mentioned rule 60. He said the Tribunal has its own rule totally different from what is followed by the Court. In the Court you can request for Transcript so that any conduct/misdemeanour of a Judge can easily be identified and where necessary escalated to the appropriate channel for redress.

 

 

I guess you can record court hearings in US but definitely not in the UK.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/law/2011/sep/09/contempt-case-pensioner-released

 

Other than that

http://www.courtsni.gov.uk/en-GB/Services/recordings-of-proceedings/Pages/default.aspx

 

At the PHR the Employer was ordered to open up documents. When this order was not complied with the Claimant wrote the Tribunal that the employer refused to comply and requested for another CMD/PHR. The Employer Lawyer firmly objected that it would be disproportionate. The Tribunal then responded that during the substantive hearing the issue should be raised. The Tribunal then overruled the order at the PHR. When the Claimant found out all the evidence he required to prove his case was being refused or over rule he made that comments that the Tribunal were biased.

 

Who ordered the employer to open the docs following PHR? You or the judge presiding PHR?

Unless there are unusual circumstances (contempt of court on the part of tribunal staff from before CMD or PHR is just an extreme example) you cannot just order another CMD or PHR. This is the process that goes as it goes, step by step, every time taking its toll or creating opportunities to gather more evidence. You have to be very skilled and careful to make sure you have got in hand what you need for the main hearing.

Are you sure the judge wrote back about raising the issue during the main hearing?

 

The case: Racial Discrimination as one head and Unfair Dismissal as the other head. RR65 was completed requesting information such as training, promotion and pay data for comparators. The Employer refused to provide answers to these questions and other crucial information to help the Claimant formulate his case more

effectively. They only responded to questions that appeared to help their case.

 

They usually do so, I'm afraid.

 

When the Claimant wrote the tribunal for the Employer to respond to those crucial information they refused to respond to, the Employer responded back to the Tribunal that they were fully aware for providing evasive answers. In the information they disclosed they refused to disclose names of Comparators but instead provided several codes for each question relating to Comparators so that you cannot identify any comparator or find any trend. For instance Comparator named as Code 11 does not uniquely tie that code to a comparator but only to that question. Code 11 in another question is another Comparator. So you can not form any unique information from Comparator Code 11

 

Did you claim in your ET1 specificly who you were discriminated against - by mentioning names of other employees?

Edited July 9, 2012 by ms_smith

[Sokoto]

Yes I agree with you on that front. But I do not see why disclosure of names in their own disclosed documents to understand the 8 archival files is asking too much.

The employer is under no legal obligation to answer a Discrimination Questionnaire, which is probably why the Judge refused your request.

[Sokoto]

ms_smith

 

The order was made by the Tribunal Chairman during the PHR for the Respondent to open up the document they disclosed on their own free will. This was after several case laws (e.g. Home Office v Tariq [2011] UKSC 35) to demonstrate Equality of Arms principle were submitted as evidence. One case law was that of paragraph 39 in the judgment of Tugendhat J in Commissioner of Police of the Metropolis & Anor v Times Newspapers Ltd & Anor [2011] EWHC 2705 (QB):

 

… under English law the burden of proof is on the defendant in a libel action. In my judgment, if the defendant is deprived of the means to prove his case, there is not equality of arms. The fact that a claimant does not need certain documents to prove his case may mean that he is not in an equal position with a defendant who does need them, but is refused access to them.

 

Most of the names of the comparators were clearly written in the ET1 form where details on the discriminating treatments were spelt out in full.

Edited July 9, 2012 by Sokoto