Rail - Authority to travel question for the experts.

[andydd]

Last week the services on my local line (C2C) were disrupted by a fatality (allegedly someone stealing overhead lines).

 

All trains were stopped for approx 4 hours and a bus replacement service was laid on but most people (including me) opted to use the nearby Greater Anglia line intsead going to London Liverpool Street instead of C2C's London Fenchurch Street. Annoiucements were made at stations and on the C2C website that tickets would be valid.

 

Now I kept an eye on the C2C website during the day and in the afternnon it siad if you had used the Greater Anglia line in the morning you could travel back on that line on your return journey (this is because many people may have left their cars, bikes at a different station).

 

So I travelled back on the Greater Anglia line. Two ticket inspectors got on and asked for tickets, I showed them my weekly C2C Season Ticket, they said it was not valid, I told them it was and informed them of what C2C had said and that a quick phonecall would clarify this.

 

They refused to call C2C, wouldnt listen to my reasoning and even called a Policeman (not sure where he suddenly came from, he was out of uniform and maybe just happened to be there).

 

At his time I was trying to phone C2C and was uanble to get through, the inspectors issued me with a penalty notice for £30.20 (I didnt pay anything there nor did they ask me to), also bizzarely they then informed me that I had four outstanding penalty charge notices.

 

By now I got through to C2C, told them the situation and they informed me I was correct, my ticket was valid, I tried handing the phone to the inspectors but they got off the train to give out penalty notices to others, eventually (!) they finished with the others (they appeared to take pleasure in making me wait !), and one of them took the call and spoke to C2C, his attitde was rather rude and appeared to be arguing with C2C, but the gist of what I overheard was that I was indeed correct, that GA hadnt been informed of the ticket situation and that a penalty charge couldnt be cancelled now.

 

So arriving hime, I phoned GA who also informed me I was correct and that Ticket inspectors should of been informed and that I should send my Penalty Charge off to them and it would be cancelled.

 

Its now been sent off, along with a strong complaint.

 

Any of the experts views on this ?. In situations like this, what laws/byelaws are effective ?.

 

I assume I would be travelling with 'authority having been given by C2C', however this is hard to check and hard to prove, the C2C website when checked had no mention of using GA, it had been changed to a general apology for the days disruption.

 

Can somone refuse to accept a penalty charge (thus leaving the TOC (and me) with the option of pursuing it in court) ?

 

I also checked with Ircas about the four outstanding penalty charge notices, they said there were none, but after further digging came back and said there were 3 from 2005 but thay had all been cancelled/succesfully appealed (I cant recall these but perhaps there were occasions when I forgot my annual season ticket, got a Penalty charge abnd then appealed, but I'm pretty crtain it didnt happen on 3 occasion in 2005).

 

Im waiting the response to my complaint from GA (and C2C, as copied them in on my complaint).

 

Andy

[Conniff]

Of course they love the bit of power they have at work, they are probably little weeds when at home afraid to answer the mrs.

 

I think you should SAR them and get copies of these past penalty charges.

[andydd]

Well..my brother was involved in similar sitaution the other week and did get a personal reply from MD with apology, promise the staff would be retrained and compensation.

 

I have no problem on staff being tough on people evading fares but I had a ticket to travel London - Southend I was just on the other line, the staff even if not aware of the line problem/validity issue should use discretion or common sense to phone their HQ (or C2C's HQ) to do a quick check, the fact they refused to makes the basis of my complaint.

 

I have asked Ircas for the details of the alleged previous 'offences' so hopefully wont need to do a SAR, I would certainly object to spending £10 !, we shall see what i get back and the response from the TOC.

 

I was also not happy that after they had been shown to be in the wrong, they offered no applogy and just ignored me.

 

Andy

[andydd]

Got a reply back from MD of Albelio (Greater Anglia), who apologises and will investigate further with head of Revenue Protection, so things are looking up

 

Andy

[Grotesque]

Not really: The Head of Revenue's sworn word is as reliable as Nixon's.

[RPI]

Its inspectors like this that give us a bad name! I hope you are compensated well and that they recieve a rollicking!

Edited July 2, 2012 by honeybee13
Editing out language.

[Old-CodJA]

The TOCs management should make sure that all front-line staff are aware, when an agreement to allow acceptance of other company tickets & traffic is made.

 

If there is evidence of a temporary easement, allowing your ticket to be used on an adjacent company route then no offence is committed. Staff operating on either route should be fully aware that the easement is in force

[andydd]

Thanks RPI and OC, unfortunatley it appears that the information from one comopany to another is somewhat haphazard, C2C claim it was clear, the inspectors said they knew nothing about it (although when pushed they clearly knew about the morning incident, that I believe closed/disrupted the line for over 4 hours and made the national press due to its nature), they just starred blankly at their Blackberries and used no common sense at all, I managed to get through to C2C and get the required info. quite quickly but alas not quick enough before a Penalty Charge was issued.

 

I suggested in my complaint that the ticklet validity issues is made clear to all travellers and staff (perhaps some sort of yes/no traffic light system on website), as it stands when/if/and for how long after/during the incident tickets are valid is very confusing, throw TfL into the equation and it gets worse.

 

Andy

[Old-CodJA]

Thanks RPI and OC, unfortunatley it appears that the information from one comopany to another is somewhat haphazard, C2C claim it was clear, the inspectors said they knew nothing about it (although when pushed they clearly knew about the morning incident, that I believe closed/disrupted the line for over 4 hours and made the national press due to its nature), they just starred blankly at their Blackberries and used no common sense at all, I managed to get through to C2C and get the required info. quite quickly but alas not quick enough before a Penalty Charge was issued.

 

I suggested in my complaint that the ticklet validity issues is made clear to all travellers and staff (perhaps some sort of yes/no traffic light system on website), as it stands when/if/and for how long after/during the incident tickets are valid is very confusing, throw TfL into the equation and it gets worse.

 

Andy

 

You're right Andy, simple commonsense would indicate if Mr X travels from station A, which he drives to every day, but has had to travel from station Z on an adjacent line through the fault of the TOC, then it is likely that he has left his car at station Z and must be allowed to return there to complete his return journey.

 

I read hundreds of reports every week and I sometimes wonder about some staff, not all I hasten to add.

 

In my opinion the vast majority do a good job in trying circumstances, but there are a few that leave you wondering.

[Grotesque]

Although I'm still not sure that describing them as 'little weeds when at home afraid to answer the mrs' was particularly useful.

[Old-CodJA]

Although I'm still not sure that describing them as 'little weeds when at home afraid to answer the mrs' was particularly useful.

 

Nor me.

[andydd]

You're right Andy, simple commonsense would indicate if Mr X travels from station A, which he drives to every day, but has had to travel from station Z on an adjacent line through the fault of the TOC, then it is likely that he has left his car at station Z and must be allowed to return there to complete his return journey.

 

I read hundreds of reports every week and I sometimes wonder about some staff, not all I hasten to add.

 

In my opinion the vast majority do a good job in trying circumstances, but there are a few that leave you wondering.

 

I suspect that after my arguing that they both did suspect that I was probably right but wanted to save face so carried on with the Penalty Charge process anyway.

 

A few points that occur to me, I understand that inspectors can be paid a commission of upto 5% on penalty charges issued, but I dont know whether this applies to Albelio/Greater Anglia and if so and they are later cancelled/appealed succesfully whether the payment still applies, although countering this, I also believe that Ircas charges a fee to the TOC everytime there is an appeal (dont know whether this changes if appeal is or isnt successful.)

 

The Car (or in my case bike) argument should be common sense and was the first thing that C2C rep said to me, in my case the stations were not that far apart but some people may have driven quite far..say from Benfleet/Leigh to Rayleigh/Shenfield, etc and be a bit stuffed if their car/transport was miles away when they returned in the evening. Not too mention that many like me had already had a nightmare journey in in the morning (2.5 hours for a trip normally under an hour).

 

Andy

[Grotesque]

There is a 'bonus scheme', authorised by the DfT, for Revenue staff, which covers all aspects of the role, but no percentage-based commission. Of course, what the Company may or may not reclaim / owe IRCAS is presumably irrelevant as this issue is about the Inspectors... not IRCAS...?

 

 

...That's called the money shot lol

[RPI]

Well i can safely say that FGW inspectors get no bonus/commission or performence related pay! Don't Greater Anglia hire in contract RPI's similar to G4S with Northern rail?

[Grotesque]

Carlisle security I believe, they may have a %age involvement, but that probably makes up for the minimum wage....

[The Urbanite]

Those inspectors were lying through their teeth - the notice could have been cancelled there and then if they wanted to do it. All that needed to be done was the carbon copies of the notice scored through and marked as cancelled, with the white copy taken back and retained. However, some of these people like to inconvenience the customer as much as possible, even if they're not certain that they have done anything wrong. When I was an inspector, I felt no need to be that much of a menace towards the customers, but that's just me! It wouldn't have been beyond the realms of possibility for the inspectors to contact their Control for information on ticket acceptance in the first place.

 

I know all about inspectors that have no interest in checking the customer's story before handing out penalties - the inspectors at one TOC have had a brief, with my name included, basically telling them not to bother attempting to penalise me and to accept my tickets as valid in future.

 

Presumably the hasty poor decisions made by inspectors serve only to cost the business time and money, which is not conducive to the fundamental objective of profit maximisation!

Edited July 4, 2012 by The Urbanite

[andydd]

Urbanite.

 

Aha..thanks for that, they told the C2C rep on the phone that the ticket couldnt be cancelled too...it did strike me as a waste of money, of their time, C2C's time, Ircas, etc...and yes they appeared to go out of their way to incovience me by calling a policeman, and when finally I had C2C on the phone they made me (and the C2C rep who thankfully didnt mind hanging on), wait 5-10 minutes while they (slowly) dealt with other passengers.

 

Yes..I strongly agree, why didnt they contact their or C2C's control (in fact they did contact them or Ircas or someone to verify my details) and GA did recently make a big deal of saying all their staff will have Blackberries in order to assist passengers.

 

Maybe they thought I was going to be a pushover and pay up the £30 without question, but as hopefully they are going to realise I'm going to be a pain in the ass

 

Andy

[billsters]

WTF did they suspect you of trying to get away with? The mindset of some inspectors is a mystery, agree with Old Codja. Fair enough, slap charges on genuine fare dodgers, but any common sense approach would show you weren't in that category.

[andydd]

Exactly.. I was travelling between Southend and London, although differenet lines they area a similar journey and roughly the same price, in fact most would prefer the C2C line as its slightly quicker, more reliable with modern air-con trains and untill very recently were both owned by National Express (NXEA having lost its franchise to Greater Anglia recently, in fact i quoted a paragraph from the new MD in my complaint..

 

"I refer you to recent comments made by Ruud Haket:-

 

“He inherits a train line which –according to figures released by watchdog Passenger Focus last month – has until now been run by a company with the lowest overall rating for customer satisfaction. ….But what Mr Haket hopes will change is that the customer will be king. Customer service will be at the heart of his franchise. It is something we have all heard before, so can a new company really make a difference?

“The most important thing is to improve the quality of the service and the experience people have on the line,” he said.

“One important thing we will do is make sure we communicate effectively and efficiently with every front-line member of staff. I am passionate about making sure people have the best travel information. It is my job to enable them to do that.”

All staff dealing with passengers will be issued with iPhones or Blackberrys to keep them up to date with what is happening. “

 

(http://www.edp24.co.uk/business/insight/customer_will_be_king_for_abellio_greater_anglia_s_new_managing_director_1_1201264)

 

My experience would beg to differ.

 

Andy

"

[Grotesque]

Well obviously if my Aunty Margery believes that she'll believe anything Why is running a railway any different to running a bank? At the end of the day they are 'for-profit' oraganisations. Therefore the customer can never be 'king', merely a means to that end.

[Conniff]

“The most important thing is to improve the quality of the service and the experience people have on the line,”

 

They will never achieve that as long as they continue to recruit their staff form the 'doh' que at the job center.

[The Urbanite]

Well obviously if my Aunty Margery believes that she'll believe anything Why is running a railway any different to running a bank? At the end of the day they are 'for-profit' oraganisations. Therefore the customer can never be 'king', merely a means to that end.

 

The inelastic nature of commuter rail travel combined with the natural monopoly a sole train operator has over a given region means that the company has little incentive to ensure that every customer is treated well. After all, they can afford to lose a few - if you're wronged and choose to boycott them, in the grand scheme of things, they won't care less.

 

I hired a car from Europcar last week to drive a 250 mile round trip which I've been doing by train on EMT for the last year. The customer service from the employees was great and I'd certainly use them again. However, if they were like some of the people EMT have on their front line, I wouldn't go back to them, ever.

[Old-CodJA]

The inelastic nature of commuter rail travel combined with the natural monopoly a sole train operator has over a given region means that the company has little incentive to ensure that every customer is treated well. After all, they can afford to lose a few - if you're wronged and choose to boycott them, in the grand scheme of things, they won't care less.

 

I hired a car from Europcar last week to drive a 250 mile round trip which I've been doing by train on EMT for the last year. The customer service from the employees was great and I'd certainly use them again. However, if they were like some of the people EMT have on their front line, I wouldn't go back to them, ever.

 

The generalisation of your comment is probably absolutely true, but there is of course one fundamental difference between using the car and using the train.

 

When using the car everyone pays full price, upfront, every time.

Edited July 5, 2012 by Old-CodJA

[Grotesque]

...except parking eh? One of the classic excuses for failure to buy a ticket is 'I didn't know, I usually drive everywhere', answered by a look of astonishment and '...so what happens if you don't show a parking ticket???' lol

[andydd]

So to bring this to a close . Just had a call from Greater Anglia's Head of Revenue protection who aplogised and said she was quite furious reading my letter especially as it all could of been checked so easily with a phone call, apparent;ly they've both had a 'talking too' which brings a smile to my face, I'm going to be sent a letter about this and some compensation.

 

Andy