What happens if you offer a short fare?

[Welsh-bob]

Hi, please can I ask, is offering a short fare considered worse than travelling on a train with no means to pay or are they considered the same?

 

Also, please can I ask, when writing a response to the revenue protection company/toc,

can it be mentioned that when buying tickets on the train or at the destination station, even though boarding the train at a station where you can buy tickets,

no mention has ever been made that in doing this you are committing an offence.

 

If this is mentioned would one likely to be incriminating themselves further,

causing the toc to investigate where previous tickets have been purchased or will they only be interested in the one day that you are stopped and questioned?

 

Many thanks for any replies.

[honeybee13]

Hello and welcome to CAG.

 

I've started a new thread for you and hope the title is OK.

 

I'm not quite sure what you're asking, so it could be good to tell us your story and see if the guys can help you.

 

My best, HB

[Welsh-bob]

Thank you honeybee, I couldn't quite work out how to start a new thread.

 

Ok, short story. I got on a train and didn't buy a ticket until I reached the destination station where I said I got on at a closer station. I feel really stupid and am very ashamed by my actions. I know you say that ignorance is not a defence but I genuinely didn't know that boarding a train was an offence and have spoken to many people since who went aware either. Other threads here seem to suggest that a lot of people are falling foul to this too. That though is the least of my problems as it's the short fare that was offered that I'm most worried about for obvious reasons. It wasn't until I reached the destination station that I realised I didn't have as much money on me as I thought I had, but did have enough to cover the fare, it would have left me no money for lunch. I know i should have just bought the correct ticket and then borrowed some cash off someone when I got to work, I've been beating myself up about it ever since. But I cannot turn back the clock and just have to reply to the letter hoping that they might consider letting me settle out of court. I know I deserve to be punished and accept that but I wasn't aware that I could be prosecuted and receive a criminal record. The only experience I've had of this sort was a friend a few years back who said he received a penalty fare for a similar thing. I think thats why I just assumed things of this nature were civil matters not criminal.

 

Getting back to my original question, I wanted to state in my letter that it has never been mentioned to me by the ticket sellers, that buying a ticket on the train or at the destination station is an offence, because had I known, I would have bought my ticket before boarding and then i would have realised i didnt have much cash on me and made the decision to use the money I had on me t pay the correct fare and hope I could borrow some when I reached work, or return home to get more money! But if I state that I have many times bought tickets after boarding the train, is this going to incriminate me further, are they likely to check back and use this against me or is it only the offences mention in the letter that I can be charged with and any past journeys won't be challenged. Also, I never received a copy of the statement I gave on the day and was told by the officer I would, should I request this, and if I do, will it impact on the 14 days I have been given to respond?

 

I hope that someone will give me some advice, I know I probably don't deserve it but I've already been suffering for my actions and can only apologise. It's something I will certainly not risk doing again, I've been going through hell and it's just not been worth it for the small amount I saved on the day.

 

Many thanks.

[Stigy]

Hi, please can I ask, is offering a short fare considered worse than travelling on a train with no means to pay or are they considered the same? Also, please can I ask, when writing a response to the revenue protection company/toc, can it be mentioned that when buying tickets on the train or at the destination station, even though boarding the train at a station where you can buy tickets, no mention has ever been made that in doing this you are committing an offence. If this is mentioned would one likely to be incriminating themselves further, causing the toc to investigate where previous tickets have been purchased or will they only be interested in the one day that you are stopped and questioned?

 

Many thanks for any replies.

Offering a short fare is the same as travelling without a ticket or the means to pay for one, yes. You'd potentially be prosecuted under s5(3)a of the regulation of Railways Act 1889. If you have paid for a fare and travelled further than that ticket allows, you could find yourself facing prosecution contrary to s.5(3)b of the same legislation. Both of these offences relate to fare evasion, as you're clearly, by your actions, either travelling, have travelled or are intending to travel without paying the correct fare for your rail journey.

 

Assuming you're trying to worm your way out of a court appearance here, they don't need to warn you that you must pay for the correct rail fare for your journey...this is common sense. I'm getting the feeling that you were found with no ticket, then offered a short fare? This, by your actions, should be fairly easy to prove as fare evasion.

[RPI]

The two offences are the same, and by travelling you enter into a contract with the TOC therefore agreeing to the NRCoC (Which is the contract) and railway byelaws, the offences under RRA 1889 (Such as a short fare, intent to avoid fare, false details etc) are, I believe, statute so there is no requirement to advertise them, it would be a bit like murdering someone and using the defence of there not being signs on the street that say you can't murder someone.

[firstclassx]

Open & Shut RRA 1889 case.

 

Did you make sufficient funds available to pay for the complete journey? No.

Did you purchase a ticket before boarding, if facilities existed? No.

Did you offer a short fare, thereby intending the Railway to suffer a loss? Yes.

 

You weighed up the situation and felt that the gain was worth the risk, albeit you wrongly concluded that only civil action could occur.

 

Personally I like people like that to end up in court. Nevertheless, the wonderful world in which we live will no doubt see another opportunist fraudster escape with a small administrative penalty, with no criminal record.

 

I can see that you say that you are sorry, but had you not been challenged, and subsequently reported, I doubt you would have felt that way.

 

Far too many people are sympathetic with people committing criminal offences, because they believe the laws are "unjust" or "unfair", especially in view of the "recession". If you can't afford to travel then you can't travel.

 

 

The advice on CAG and other forums is to offer an out of court settlement. I would personally like to see the end of that practice as it is effectively pay up or get a criminal record, with the deterrent factor slowly deteriorating over time.

[Welsh-bob]

Thank you for the replies. Yes I would dearly like to settle this out of court. I admit I was stupid but a criminal record could mean a termination in employment. Being out of work will just mean that I will become a burden to the state which hits all tax payers in the pocket. surely the better alternative is for me to pay an out of court settlement thus keeping me in work. There is no way I'll ever not purchase a ticket before boarding a train again, I've learnt a harsh lesson.

 

Could anyone help with the other questions i asked, I would be most grateful.

[honeybee13]

Hello again.

 

Hopefully there will be a few more replies today. The guys normally advise writing to apologise for the inconvenience you have caused the company and the member of staff who had to deal with you, to show remorse and undertake never to do this again. It's better in your own words and you should mean what you tell them.

 

Ask if they will allow you to pay the fare and their reasonable admin expenses, in order to resolve this out of court. This approach has worked for people who have been advised here, but if the TOC say no, remember that all is still not lost and come back here for more advice.

 

HB

[MrGates]

You are only permitted to purchase tickets on board a train IF there are no ticket selling facilities at your origin station OR they are out of service, closed etc which staff on trains are aware of. Yes the practice of selling tickets on trains exists BUT conductors are not officers of the railway nor authorised penalty fare collectors, so will sell a ticket where needed. When you purchase a ticket on train the ticket stock on the reverse should have a penalty fare warning (penalty fare routes where applicable) you to buy before you board.

 

Also note that buying on board will result in the sale of no discounted tickets (cheap days & railcard), If a revenue inspector had been on board they might well have dealt with you there and then and reported you for a Byelaw (18.1) offence or a penalty fare. All this is found in the NrCoC.

 

But has already pointed out short offers are serious offences.

[Stigy]

You are only permitted to purchase tickets on board a train IF there are no ticket selling facilities at your origin station OR they are out of service, closed etc which staff on trains are aware of. Yes the practice of selling tickets on trains exists BUT conductors are not officers of the railway nor authorised penalty fare collectors, so will sell a ticket where needed. When you purchase a ticket on train the ticket stock on the reverse should have a penalty fare warning (penalty fare routes where applicable) you to buy before you board.

You are correct that Conductors aren't authorised collectors, however, for the benefit of reporting a person for an offence, they become an Officer of the railway. It's just not practical for them to deal with such situations as they won't have been trained, plus have other, safety critical duties to take precedence. Any employee of a rail company is able to submit an MG11 witness statement, there's just no point in train all staff and giving everyone the facilities and time to do it, when there's people whose duties are to specifically target fare evaders and other law breakers.

[MrGates]

You are correct that Conductors aren't authorised collectors, however, for the benefit of reporting a person for an offence, they become an Officer of the railway. It's just not practical for them to deal with such situations as they won't have been trained, plus have other, safety critical duties to take precedence. Any employee of a rail company is able to submit an MG11 witness statement, there's just no point in train all staff and giving everyone the facilities and time to do it, when there's people whose duties are to specifically target fare evaders and other law breakers.[/quote

 

Yes that is what i meant to write stigy, i was just trying to imply in relation to inspectors and was trying to keep it simple.

[Stigy]

Yes that is what i meant to write stigy, i was just trying to imply in relation to inspectors and was trying to keep it simple.

Okay, thought that might be the case, just clarifying really

[Old-CodJA]

You are correct that Conductors aren't authorised collectors, however, for the benefit of reporting a person for an offence, they become an Officer of the railway. It's just not practical for them to deal with such situations as they won't have been trained, plus have other, safety critical duties to take precedence. Any employee of a rail company is able to submit an MG11 witness statement, there's just no point in train all staff and giving everyone the facilities and time to do it, when there's people whose duties are to specifically target fare evaders and other law breakers.

 

Fundamentally correct.

 

Any employee of a railway company, who, in the course of his/her duties, identifies an offence can report that matter. There are a whole range of ways that might be undertaken, but so far as 'fare evasion' is concerned, it will normally involve a written report known as a 'Section 9', or 'MG11', which are the same thing and which consist of a written statement, usually made by a PACE trained RPI.

 

For pretty well all other grades, the written report can be made out on a form known as a TIR (Travel Irregularity Report). If the report contains clear evidence that a prosecutable offence has been detected, there is a mechanism in place for converting the TIR to a prosecutable statement. Penalty Fare Notices and Unpaid Fare Notices that remain unpaid after the time period allowed for resolution can also be prosecuted by the same procedure.

 

So far as the OP is concerned, I apologise if I'm wrong, but does your user name suggest this happened in Wales?

 

If so, Penalty Fares do not apply on ATW services and therefore, it is most likely that the TOC will consider prosecution of a 'short offer' contrary to Section 5.3.b of The Regulation of Railways Act 1889.

 

The reporting inspector/staff is not obliged to give you a copy of any statement taken at the time, but if you ask for one and if it is practical to provide it (i.e: if a company office with photocopier is readily available, then they might do so.) Following verification letter and any subsequent correspondence, if the matter proceeds to issue of a Summons, a copy of the inspectors' statement will be included with all the papers served with the Summons in good time for the person accused to prepare a defence.

Edited June 26, 2012 by Old-CodJA

[Welsh-bob]

Just a bit of an update, as I know you like to be kept informed. I wrote a letter to the Revenue company re-stating what I had said in my statement on the day. I apologised profusely and told them how ashamed I was of my actions and that it will not happen again. I explained that i could lose my job if I recieve a criminal record and offered to pay for the fare and admin costs as an alternative to court action.I recieve a letter back today thanking me for my letter and that they have taken into consideration what I had said but that they are going to take it to court. Although the wording in the letter is a little confusing as it just says they may proceed but dont state that they are for sure or under what charge it will go to court as. I havent read the letter myself, my partner phoned me and read it out so cant remember everything word for word. honeybee suggested earlier that all is not lost but I dont see what more I can say or do. I would still like to settle this out of court as I'm afraid of the implications a record will have! They have given me another 14 days to respond with any further comments.Is there any further advise that could be offered, I would be very grateful to you.Many thanksRobert.

[Grotesque]

Maybe reiterate what you've said in previous letters, and as it seems to reached a final impasse (from your point oof view) perhaps enclosing a cheque. It's the last-chance saloon, except for (literally) settling on the steps of the court (which does actually happen). So I guess it's the penultimate-chance saloon

Remember, if you do still have to apppear, you will be able to prove you have been proactive in attempting to settle, and that will ceratinly go in your favour.

 

Anyway, I won't say how much you may wish to write it out for, but if you look at a few threads here you might see the usual figure claimed in court, inc. fare price, costs etc, and base it on that.

 

Good luck!

[Welsh-bob]

Thanks grotesque. I didnt want to look like I could just throw money at a problem and make it go away. I have done wrong (although wrongly assumed the seriousness) and want to make amends. I have been more than deterred from doing something like this again so that in itself is a result for the TOC, plus I've also made many others aware of the potential outcome of not buying before you board, again a result for the TOC. Surely taking me to court will cost them more time and money and I'm happy to cover those costs and end this here and now. I'm not sure how many more sleepless nights I can take! Even though this is as Old-CodJA has stated, 'an offence at the lower end of the scale', I still do not want ANY convictions on my record. As I stated previously, I didnt even know until this happened that there were all these laws covering the railways. There have been others with the same story as mine and have managed to settle out of court with their first letter, I dont understand why I'm not being given the opportunity.I will write another letter, and hope that they will reconsider. Thanks all for the advice, I'll keep you updated!Robert.

[Grotesque]

Cheers, best of luck!