bailiff acting on revoked warrant.......should i pay?

[timasmum]

Hi,

 

I'm not sure what to do, a warrant was issued on 4th october 2011 for a pcn, and this was revoked by the traffic enforcement centre (TEC) (court) on 20th november 2011 when i filed an out of time witness statement.

I received a letter from the bailiff on saturday 2nd june 2012, and a visit from them this morning.

I had appealed to the council but not had a response, and have heard from the TEC that they have not reissued a warrant and that hounslow council is basically acting on the old revoked warrant issued on 4th october 2011.

surely this is unlawful? illegal?

have tried contacting the council but they only accept written communication- email/letter, no visits in person or phonecalls, and i'm worried the bailiff will come again and add more fees.

does anyone know what to do in this instance?

thanks

[lookinforinfo]

If they are acting on a revoked warrant, then any bailiff fees are the responsibility of the Council, not you. To speed matters up, you should ring your local

councillor and get them to sort it out.

 

If you have a phone number for the bailiff, text him with the details of the revoked warrant and advise them that any further visit by them to your home would be considered

harassment and trespass. back that up with a letter to the bailiff company saying the same thing.

 

The only thing is that if you haven't paid the fine, now is round about the time one would expect the bailiffs to be used if everything went back to square one from November.

Has the Council sent you any further correspondence on the subject since the warrant was revoked.

[timasmum]

Hi lookinforinfo,

 

Thanks for your response......i'm getting very anxious about this whole thing.

after the warrant was revoked, they correctly sent me a notice to owner. i appealed the fine, as it was never handed to me in the first place and the photo the warden took shows me driving away.

they never replied, and the next i heard was the letter from the bailiff o saturday. do you think i should just pay the bailiff?

[tomtubby]

I cannot even believe that you are even CONSIDERING paying !!

 

It would seem that you filed an Out of Time Witness Statement and this was accepted and a NEW notice to owner issued.

 

You then appealed this PCN and did not receive a response from the council. Therefore you SHOULD be able to file another Out of Time Application but it would SEEM from your conversation with TEC that the LA has not applied for another warrant. Bizarre!!

 

I would suggest that you immediately call TEC and explain what has happended and in most cases where there is a serious discrepancy, they will email the LA.

 

If you pay......you will NOT be able to file an out of Time Witness Statement and the money will therefore be LOST. Believe me....there is a lot of concern at this rule change that TEC has introduced. More later....

 

Keep you car out of the way until this serious matter has been sorted out.

 

Please keep us posted as this appear to be very serious indeed....

 

Which local authority is this and which bailiff company?

[timasmum]

Hi tomtubby,

 

Thank you for your response. The bailiff company is 'collect services' based in Uxbridge and the LA is London Borough of Hounslow. I've spoken to TEC and they told me to contact hounslow council about it. They said that the council never re registered the pcn. I was appealing it in the first place because the warden never stuck it on my window, he issued it as I was driving away. I spoke to the bailiff to let him know that he was acting ona revoked warrant and he didn't want to know, then after I read the first reply to my post I called him again- said that I've been advised to let him know that he is acting on a revoked warrant- of which I have proof of from the TEC, and that if he comes to my property again it will be considered trespass, and he started being nice, and said he would put on hold for a couple of days until they hear from the council. I just got back from the council to show them the letter from court, but I could not speak to anyone, I had to ask reception to take copies and pass on to the appropriate department. I've wasted my whole day on this, I know its not a particularly nice day, but still.....

[Jamberson]

I can't believe it's impossible to speak to someone at the council. Surely they have a public office?

 

Which council was it?

[ploddertom]

 

The bailiff company is 'collect services' based in Uxbridge and the LA is London Borough of Hounslow.

 

 

 

Which council was it?

 

 

PT

[tomtubby]

The LOCAL AUTHORITY could find themselves in the most serious trouble for this.

 

The LA are wholly responsible for the acts and omissions of THEIR AGENTS.

 

There is of course the possibility that this is NOT an isolated problem at all.

 

If this was me...I know what I would be doing..........I would take myself to the police station and report this as a SERIOUS CRIME as the bailiff appears to be seeking to seize goods WITHOUT any legal authority.

[brassnecked]

The LOCAL AUTHORITY could find themselves in the most serious trouble for this.

 

The LA are wholly responsible for the acts and omissions of THEIR AGENTS.

 

There is of course the possibility that this is NOT an isolated problem at all.

 

If this was me...I know what I would be doing..........I would take myself to the police station and report this as a SERIOUS CRIME as the bailiff appears to be seeking to seize goods WITHOUT any legal authority.

 

Simply put THEFT, and demanding money by false representation with menaces.

[timasmum]

to be honest, i would not be surprised if this is not an isolated incident- most people would panic at the sight of bailiffs and not bother to check the warrant- i did panic and accidently checked the warrant. i actually called the tec to ask them what i could do as i had never received a response to my appeal.

shall hopefully speak to the council in the morning and get this sorted.

any tips on what to say to them would be greatly appreciated

[timasmum]

I can't believe it's impossible to speak to someone at the council. Surely they have a public office?

 

Which council was it?

 

hounslow council have made it impossible to personally call their parking fines department. you have to either- write, email or leave a message on their voicemail and wait for them to call back.

i did all three, i hand delivered a letter and photocopies of the tec letter- NO reply.

[Bang!]

If a bailiff attempts to act on a revoked warrant, then its pretty much the same as a DCA with no rights doing a visit.

 

So surely you can remove the common law right of access to Bailiffs without warrants?

[brassnecked]

If he calls again, on a "revoked!" warrant, a warrant that has actually been cancelled by the court, the bailiff has no right whatsoever to use it as a tool of enforcement to demand money from yourself. You should film him with a mobile even to capture his threats, tell him the warrant is worthless as it was revoked by TEC, so is invalid, and as he is a trespasser, any implied right of access to your property is therefore removed and would he leave before you call the police.

 

If he calls your bluff and calls the police himself, when they arrive tell them the warrant he is using was revoked by the TEC, so the bailiff is committing Fraud, by false representation by using a defunct warrant imho.

 

Follow the good advice already given and email the council that if they continue this matter they will be in serious trouible, also contact your councillor and especially MP.

Edited June 8, 2012 by brassnecked
keybrrrrdd

[SWLABR9]

I had British Gas calling once upon a time with what they said was a warrant for entry, and indeed it may well have been a warrant. I couldn't tell if it was a warrant or not as a) they wouldn't give it to me to examine although they said they'd let me see it from a distance (I wanted to photocopy it) and b) I never saw a warrant in my life anyway so I wouldn't know what one looked like. Is there a guide to warrants anywhere on this site? I didn't let them in by the way and eventually they went away after I showed them my CPAP breathing apparatus. I have sleep apnea and sleep with a mask attached to my face which pumps air into me. Mine is therefore a vulnerable household. A warrant for entry probably should never have been granted. I think the BG guy grasped that and wanted no part of it. But anyway... what's a warrant look like then?

[tomtubby]

Just to be on the safe side, call the bailiff and ask him to confirm the PCN number that this "debt" relates to. Then call TEC once again and ask them to CHECK again whether the LA have applied for a warrant. A mistake could have been made by TEC.

 

Alternativly, when you appealed the new NtO, did you keep a copy and can you get the PCN number yourself

[Jamberson]

hounslow council have made it impossible to personally call their parking fines department. you have to either- write, email or leave a message on their voicemail and wait for them to call back.

i did all three, i hand delivered a letter and photocopies of the tec letter- NO reply.

 

This is a terrible turn of events. This needs to be challenged by someone on high - the public must assert a right to speak to people in the relevant department. I don't know what you can do about that, but it's obviously a failed system.

 

I think if I were you I would make a formal complaint to Hounslow Council about not getting replies. I'll bet that will open a door if you insist that you are contacted by someone.

 

Once you get to speak to someone, you just need them to talk you through the chain of events on this PCN - all the documents which have been issued and sent in and out. Write it all down as a list, with the dates. I would also take the person's name and phone number so you can get back to them.

 

It is possible a new warrant was granted - but you have a right to know. If it wasn't the bailiff is behaving illegally.

[lamma]

Once hard evidence that the warrant is expired is obtained. Hard enough for court. I suggest a complaint under s.135 of the County Courts Act 1984. That is a serious offence. See http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1984/28/section/135 What this will do, one would hope, is throw a spotlight on the the status of council warrants AND on the actual statuss of the TEC. If TEC permission to a council does give it the status of a court warrant then provided the proof of the expired warrant is prime facie then its a slam dunk conviction surely ? And yes I know they act as private bailiffs when enforcing but that is not the issue, the status of the warrant is. So,good idea or dumb ? the other bugbear will be getting anyone in officialdom interested it taking action against a bailiff. But this is where the private bailiff wrinkle has a potential blowback effect. Yes they are Court appointed bailiffs but they are not acting in that capacity when acting on a council parking 'warrant'. Then again when a bailiff does get caught out pretending to be acting under authority of the court (videoed probably) which I believe has happened have any of them ever been sent to jail ?

[seanamarts]

Have we any updates on this please.

[timasmum]

Hi everyone, thank you so much for all the replies, to be honest the idea of bailiffs freak me out so i did consider paying just to get the matter over and done with, but after reading all the replies realised that was just plain silly.

sorry i've been away for a couple of weeks- exams, but all over now, yippeeee.

anyway, the update-

i have NOT had a reply from the council and have not heard anything from the bailiff. i did consider calling TEc again and asking them if the council had reapplied for the warrant but then that might make the TEC write to the council and advise them to do it, so not sure what to do.

The council are REALLY bad, I must have sent them about 5 emails and went to see them in person and they took copies of all my letters to pass on to the appropriate person, but he has never responded to anything.

We have a facility to appeal the NtO online, thats the way i appealed and got a confirmation email for that.

should i just wait it out? now there is no imminent threat of bailiff its not so bad

[Bang!]

Copy this thread here...

 

http://www.lgo.org.uk/making-a-complaint/

 

...asking what they suggest.

[Jamberson]

As I advised before, you need to force this through the complaints process. The council's internal complaints will probably do the trick, but a complaint to the ombudsman as well will give them a kick. Once you are able to get through to them, then you can get the info you need on the situation and history of the PCN. Until you know what's gone on, there's not much you can do.

[seanamarts]

Formal complaint to the CEO of the council, Ombudsman will tell you to do this before they have any involvement.

[tomtubby]

I would strongly suggest that you call TEC. I can assure you that they will NOT call the council to get them to re-issue the warrant. It just may be possible that the person that you spoke to at TEC had been looking at the wrong screen or had input the wrong PCN number. It would be far better to check just in case a valid warrant had been issued.

 

Please do call them and ask them to CONFIRM the position by email. That way you have documentary evidence.

 

PLEASE do post back.....and good news to hear that your exams are now finished !!!