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I was re-reading the letter, it says if you want to appeal clearly set out your reasons for appealing so do you think it's best to just put the reasons (bullet points) in the letter and then in the meeting go into detail, put the reasons in the letter and a sentence saying I have prepared a statement to bring to the appeal hearing and if you wish to see this in advance please let me know, or just send the whole thing (three pages I have written of why I'm appealing)?

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You have to link your known depression to the act that dismissd you. You have to show that they treated you less favourably to other emplyeees that have had illness.

 

It would help if the summarily dismissed you without taking advice from a doctor or OH consultant. have they a policy on sickness? Did they follow it? If not then you can say in your appeal that you were discriminated against because they knew about your illness and did not foillow their own policy.

 

Mention discrimination and raise a grievance immediately to suggest that you were treated differently.

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Yes I told them numerous times about my illness and they did not ask for any information or refer me to a doctor or OH.

 

ETA: Is not following their policy discrimination? I would have thought it was more unfair dismissal but I'm not sure? Thanks for your help

 

ETA2: There is no sickness policy, just capability and absence management. They did not follow the capability policy as they considered it conduct not capability.

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Yes I told them numerous times about my illness and they did not ask for any information or refer me to a doctor or OH.

 

ETA: Is not following their policy discrimination? Yes because they make a policy and are expected to follow it for all employees not just those that they want to. I would have thought it was more unfair dismissal but I'm not sure? It is both. Thanks for your help

 

ETA2: There is no sickness policy, just capability and absence management. So, by not having a fair and even handed approach they just make it up as they go. !! There should be a thought out policy as to how they approach sickness. They did not follow the capability policy as they considered it conduct not capability. As you point out you can be capable even when ill.

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Thank you, that makes sense... so should I be saying they didn't follow their capability policy and discuss ways forward for me to get some medical help while keeping my job. They also don't have an alcohol policy. Not having these policies helps them in a way because I can't say oh you should have followed your alcohol policy, etc because they don't have one. I'm not sure whether there's a way to put in my appeal that they don't have these policies and they should have them. Even the capability thing talks more about lack of training rather than someone who is sick.

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Hi

 

Do not volunteer too much information to your employers regarding what they should and what they shouldnt have done,

 

Save all this for any impending ET claim otherwise all you will be doing is asking them to cover their tracks.

 

Tell them as little as possible but make sure that everything that you want covering is covered and recorded at your appeal hearing.

 

Dont forget this is your last chance to get reinstated.

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Thank you, that makes sense... so should I be saying they didn't follow their capability policy and discuss ways forward for me to get some medical help while keeping my job. They also don't have an alcohol policy. Not having these policies helps them in a way because I can't say oh you should have followed your alcohol policy, etc because they don't have one. I'm not sure whether there's a way to put in my appeal that they don't have these policies and they should have them. Even the capability thing talks more about lack of training rather than someone who is sick.

 

I agree with madari don't say too much but you do need to raise it in a way that alludes to shortcomings. By raising these problems in an appeal and lodging a grievance it may give them pause for thought and reverse the decision.

 

However even if you raise these and win, expect that your grievance will be lost. There then will be a period where new policies will be introduced and you will be closely 'supervised' for the future. Eventually they will find something to tie to you to get rid of you.

 

What I am suggesting is do you actually want your job back or to take them to the ET and try and find a new job?

 

If it is the ET route, are you up to the task, because it takes a lot out of you fighting for what you think is right and there is no certainty of success?

 

The point about raising the discriminatory allegations in the appeal means that by confirming the dismissal, those making the decision may be guilty of victimisation because they will have taken an action to your detriment (dismissal) in the full knowledge that you have raised a grievance about discriminatory shortcomings they have and specifically they were raise at the appeal they are dealing with for reinstatement. So it makes it personal to those managers.

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Ah that makes sense, I was going to raise it all at the appeal. I actually don't want my job back now, though if they offer it I will take it. But after what's happened I'd feel uncomfortable there and worry they'd just try and get rid of me another way. All I really want is them to give me a good reference and not be dismissed for gross misconduct on account of being drunk at work. I don't know if I should directly ask them for this at the appeal or not though? I spoke to ACAS who said it's something I could ask through their concilliatory service that they offer as an alternative to going to a tribunal but I have to do the appeal before that. Does that make sense? Would either of you, or anyone on this thread, mind me PMing my rough draft appeal letter and statement to read over? I don't want to post it on here as it has personal information in it.

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Ok Kieri not wanting to go back is a positive move on your part which can define how you can tactically move your interests forward.

 

Put in the grievance along with the appeal letter. Do not offer AT ALL anything that will show you are weak. These cases are generally about who blinks first. They are also about (for the employer) keeping legal costs to a minimum. Getting a settlement as cheaply as possible generally means compromise at some stage. That can be an ACAS mediation, but that does not happen until you have played out the internal processes and issued an ET1. Once an ET1 has been issued the employer HAS to address the LEGAL arguments and all internal bias has to be put to one side.

 

If you present an arguable case (note not one that is watertight) then even a weak hand can win, or at least be what you call a win.

 

Pm me if you want, but others may be in a better position than me, but at least I can make a start at it for you.

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Oh it won't let me send a PM as I don't have 30 posts yet. Not wanting to spam the board up is there any other way I might be able to send it?

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Hi

 

One more thing...be seen to be fighting for your job back to the bitter end or the ET will take a dim view of you not wanting your job back.....& so on.

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Thank you. I mean, I would like my job back ideally, but being realistic, I don't think it would be a very nice environment after this, and I'd worry they'd be looking for another way to get rid of me anyway. It's sad because I actually loved my job.

 

I'm writing in the appeal that they should have used capability not conduct, and that they didn't consider my mitigating circumstances.

 

If I can get my job back great, but being realistic I don't expect they'll want me back after this has happened so I'm hoping at least they could give me a reference that would allow me to find a new job. I'm not sure whether to ask for this outright?

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Once you have got the official ball rolling these things normally end up in a compromise agreement. Along with any compensation they agree to things like apologies and references are common requests to get you to withdraw a ET claim. It is a rough ride and you will get upset about the lies. Stick with it and you will win through in the end.

 

How about writing about you experiences in general terms. Make a word document paragraph it and lost it in chunks so we can read it one post after the other in order to get it above the 30. Answer this post and Madari's post separately and that will eat another 2 away.

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Thank you Papa Smurf! So do you know if you have to put in an ET1 in order to use ACAS concilliation service? On the phone they gave me the impression it's an alternative, I know it is offered alongside an ET1 claim but they also seemed to say it coud be used as an alternative with no need to do an ET1 at all. Are ET1s still free do you know and is there any risk I would have to pay costs if I lost my claim? I really have no money, well actually less than no money since I am now out of a job :(

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Did the thing about taking holiday make sense as I explained it? I didn't complain at the time because I was in no fit state to really think anything of it but since it happened I have been feeling that I was treated differently to another sick employee by being told to take holiday, not sick pay, and I don't feel I should have to lose out because of this. i didn't go to the doctor's and get signed off sick, even though I could have, because I try to work as hard as I can and don't like going sick. I did agree to take the holiday instead of sick, as it was suggested to me, but I just went along with it really as I was in such a state. It was suggested I wasn't in a fit state to work because of my depression so I should take holiday and give myself a break. Good intentions but it cost me a lot of my holiday and also they didn't address my sickness or give me support. This isn't part of why I was fired but I believe it is relevant because I'm saying they didn't take my illness into account and this is another example. It was all done verbally though, and I can't actually remember what the exact dates were so I don't know what to put. I just know how many days and roughly when it was. The depression when I took the holiday was actually sparked by a falling out with another manager (who didn't know I had depression) and I had got upset over a comment that was made to me. I didn't put in a complaint about any of this and now it's (just) over three months since so I think it's too late to put in a complaint(?) Also I can't raise a grievance because I'm no longer an employee.

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I'm thinking about putting the above in the letter but I'm not sure because it's not directly related to the thing I'm appealing so is it a bit of a red herring? I am thinking of just raising it in the appeal hearing, and saying I am not happy with repaying this money because I was actually sick and the company were aware of that but treated me differently and encouraged me to take holiday instead. If I put it in a statement at the appeal hearing is that the right thing to do?

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People under stress will look for advice where they can get it. In my humble opinion if you are stressed and suffering depression and someone says something that you think will help you, then you do tend to follow that advice, even if in the long term it is a detriment to your self. I know suffering from depression myself that sometimes you have trouble getting through the next few hours without even thinking about the next few weeks/months.

 

I would appeal it, I would state that you were suffering from an illness that your direct manager was aware of and they coerced you into something that you didn't want to do, even though short term it helped you, long term it didn't and only helped your manager.

 

Yes, I did just go along with what they said, it didn't seem weird at the time but it does now that I've been able to think about it clearly, it feels like they weren't acknowledging I'm ill which I've felt like they've done all throughout this process.

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I'm not able to reply to your PM for some reason Papa Smurf, but I totally understand and hopefully we can talk tomorrow. I'm not going to be posting anything tomorrow anyway as there's not post offices open.

Thanks to everyone that's replied so far and any more advice that anyone thinks of would really help as I need to send my letter on Wednesady.

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I can't seem to edit my posts so I'm making another one to ask one more question: I was given a paid suspension until a set date but they actually dismissed me with effect from a date before the end of that suspension, so I have not been paid for as long as they initially said. Is this OK or is this something I should appeal / question also?

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Hi

 

Once you are dismissed then it follows that your pay will also stop, it makes no difference to how long you were suspended for.

 

example: if you were suspended for say three months with pay and during that period you went and set the place of work on fire[and got caught], do you think they would continue to pay you for the full three months?

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Hi Madari, thanks that makes sense, although in my case they suspended me on full pay for one week while they investigated the incident. They fired me a day before the suspension ended. Is that still okay?

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They pay you up until the date you were dismissed, suspension or not as the suspension only lasts until you are called back tot the meeting.

I am not a legal professional or adviser, I am however a Law Student and very well versed areas of Employment Law. Anything I write here is purely from my own experiences! If I help, then click the star to add to my reputation :)

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Papa Smurf for some reason I can't send PMs, I'm not sure if I can receive them so if you have any advice regarding the document I sent you would it be OK to post it in here please? Please don't paste the document in here, as it has some specifics I wasn't going to put in here just in case.

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Guys, I just thought of something else. The first incident that I believe is discriminatory was almost 3 months ago. Even though I didn't complain about it internally at the time but am complaining about it NOW in my dismissal appeal, should I put in an ET1 so I'm not out of time? And will it go against me that I didn't complain at the time? I honestly thought it would just blow over and couldn't handle the stress of doing a grievance at the time.

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