@vodafoneuk Stolen phone charges, is goodwill the only way to reduce my bill? **RESOLVED**

[msutherland]

Hi Besssmart,

 

Locutus is probably right that is makes sense to start a new thread on this, but I'll give you my thoughts on your question anyways.

 

I always leave data roaming off when I travel, and I always PIN protect my iphone. In this case clearly these were not obstacles for the thieves. If I were your husband I would consider buying a cheap pay-as-you-go phone for use while in South Africa, which seems to me to be the only way to avoid the situation I am in, (unless he carries mobile phone insurance). A cheap phone and SIM card will cost about £15 while there.

[2Grumpy]

Maybe get a PAYG when there to get their local rates rather than UK roaming rates if it work out cheaper

[msutherland]

I've now received my itemized bill from vodaphone, which comes to £1700. The charges consist of about 350 calls to the same number, and look like this:

 

Thu 24 May 17:54 Invoke CLIR Vodacom divert 0m 0s 0.000 0.000 VAT at 0%

Thu 24 May 17:55 37745302153 Vodacom 17m 44s 14.400 14.400 VAT at 0%

 

Does anyone know what "Invoke CLIR" means? Also, how are the thieves profiting from this exactly? Is 37745302153 a pay number, owned by a member of the gang? Is this useful information that I should pass a long to the South African police?

 

Thanks again for your helpful comments.

[goodwill]

Thu 24 May 17:54 Invoke CLIR Vodacom divert 0m 0s 0.000 0.000 VAT at 0%

http://www.ofcom.org.uk/static/archive/oftel/publications/1995_98/technical/cli698.htm

 

If CLIR has been invoked, then all CLI information shall be classified as ‘withheld';

 

I,m guessing wherever the call was terminating they did not want it to be linked to the stolen phone.

 

Thu 24 May 17:55 37745302153 Vodacom 17m 44s 14.400 14.400 VAT at 0%

Kosovo number used for 'international premium rate billing'

many countries set aside some of their number range to be used for billing premium rate services.

 

these numbers are allocated to 'sellers' and 're-sellers' who supply them to the end users. (the mugger in your case)

 

here's an example of the type of thing on the internet. notice the test numbers from the blocks they have.

 

KOSOVO 386 497 45�Days�EOM 0.065 EUR +386 49796052 1327

KOSOVO 6 377 453 Daily 1/0 0.075 USD +377 45302726 1328

KOSOVO 6 377 453 Weekly 7/1 0.095 USD +377 45302726 1329

KOSOVO 6 377 453 Monthly 30/45 0.120 USD +377 45302726 1330

 

Also, how are the thieves profiting from this exactly?

The call is billed as an expensive international call to Kosovo. Vodacom SA (after taking their share) passes the revenue down the carrier chain (who also take their share) until it gets to the company that 'sells' the numbers. This company's server will not be in Kosovo but may be in London or Australia for example. It's called 'short stopping'. So the victim is billed for an expensive international call but much of this revenue ends up with the company that supplies the number. This is then shared with the mugger.

 

Is this useful information that I should pass a long to the South African police?

all they would need to do was follow the money so why don't they?

 

another question I have always asked myself is why do the Networks insist on passing on such obvious proceeds of crime. If they refused to do this the multimillion dollar business of stealing phones to make fraudulent premium rate calls would cease overnight.

[locutus]

If they refused to do this the multimillion dollar business of stealing phones to make fraudulent premium rate calls would cease overnight.

not to mention violent muggings like this. If the phone was locked, the muggers may have got more violent to get the unlock code.

[msutherland]

Thanks goodwill, that is a very clear explanation. What an insidious racket they have going on! And everyone profits along the chain, at the expense of the victim of crime. Ugh.

[Bang!]

Its years since I had a contract - as I prefer an unlocked phone and whichever PAYG suits best for where I am/what I need, so I have no handy contract to check.

 

However, does it not state in mobile contracts that the sim remains the property of the phone company - so effectively the OPs mobile was stolen, and Vodafone's sim was stolen, which to me offers greater weight to BankFodder's take on this.

 

From this perspective it suddenly seems far less like the OPs problem, and far more Vodafone's issue.

 

Secondly, as the phone is being used to milk money from a crime, rather than just the crook phoning his mates, then paying this bill clearly makes the carriers accessories to the crime.

 

Clearly the OP could never prevent payment from Vodafone to the SA telco (and to the dubious terminating number) - but obviously Vodafone could. So if Vodafone pays - could the OP not in turn sue them for their being an accessory to the crime?

[msutherland]

That is an interesting point Bang! Is it possible that the thieves removed the SIM card from my iPhone and then used it in another phone to make the fraudulent calls?

 

After thinking about this whole situation a bit more, I don't see why the phone companies don't just block the dialing of premium rate numbers from phones that are overseas as a default, requiring the owner to prearrange them to be unblocked before their trip if they feel like they are going to be calling Kosovo a lot. This is precisely what I did with my debit card - I had to notify my bank of my travel dates and destinations before I left, and they unblocked my bank card for use in South Africa.

[Lee Vodafone Company Rep]

Hi Michael,

 

Thanks for updating the thread to confirm that you've received your latest bill.

 

As promised, we'll get back in touch with you by the close of business tomorrow.

Sorry to butt in on your thread but my hubby is going to Johannesburg on Sunday to work for 3 months, he phoned Vodafone and was told by the customer service advisor to leave his data roaming on!!

 

I always thought he would incur huge charges of he did this,, please can you tell us what you did whilst our there (obviously before your phone was stollen) to stop yourself incurring huge monthly bill?? Sorry again for hijacking your thread.

 

Hi besssmart2001,

 

If your husband won't be needing to use data via his mobile during his time in South Africa then I'd recommend disabling data via his phones settings. For assistance with this please see our Help Centre here.

 

In the event that he does wish to use data then he can find further information on the relevant charging rates here together with information on our data roaming spending cap.

 

If he'd like to discuss things further he's welcome to email us with his details via the Contact us form here quoting the code WRT135 - CAG Forum in the subject line?

 

Once sent he'll receive an automated reply with a reference number. To ensure that it reaches us could you update the thread with this and we'll get back to him as soon as possible?

 

Kind regards,

 

Lee

 

Web Relations Team

 

Vodafone UK

 

 

 

 

[besssmart2001]

Hi thank you Lee he has emailed you via the form.

 

Look forward to hearing from you soon!!

[msutherland]

Thanks Lee - I was contacted this morning by someone at vodaphone who is looking into my case, I should hear back by the end of the week at the latest on whether there is anything the company can do.

[msutherland]

Very interesting developments in this case! Vodaphone called this morning and agreed to drop all charges related to the fraudulent use of my phone after the mugging.

 

I would like to think that the good people at vodaphone had a long and reflective discussion, carefully considering the moral and legal implications of my situation before coming to the correct decision. Or it could be that the Daily Mail contacted me and asked to run a story on my case.

 

Whatever the motivation I'm pleased that vodaphone has done the right thing, and I would like to thank the members of this forum, and Ruth Lythe from the Daily Mail for support and advice.

 

This was obviously a very traumatic incident and I'm pleased to the see the back of it. I would not be surprised if we see legislation covering this sort of situation in the next few years, but until then I wish others in similar unfortunate circumstances the best of luck.

[besssmart2001]

Brilliant news msutherland,, it's always good to see an outcome where common sense prevails!!!

[BankFodder]

Well don. Very good news indeed.

 

Well don to VodaFone as well - although as I have said earlier, I believe very firmly that the true legal position is that it is the phone company which is the victim of fraud and that it is unconscionable for them to expect their customers to make up their stolen losses.

 

Well done Vodafone

[Lee Vodafone Company Rep]

Hi thank you Lee he has emailed you via the form.

 

Look forward to hearing from you soon!!

 

Hi besssmart2001,

 

Thanks for coming back to me.

 

I've received your husband's email and so please be assured that I'll get back to him as soon as I can.

Very interesting developments in this case! Vodaphone called this morning and agreed to drop all charges related to the fraudulent use of my phone after the mugging.

 

I would like to think that the good people at vodaphone had a long and reflective discussion, carefully considering the moral and legal implications of my situation before coming to the correct decision. Or it could be that the Daily Mail contacted me and asked to run a story on my case.

 

Whatever the motivation I'm pleased that vodaphone has done the right thing, and I would like to thank the members of this forum, and Ruth Lythe from the Daily Mail for support and advice.

 

This was obviously a very traumatic incident and I'm pleased to the see the back of it. I would not be surprised if we see legislation covering this sort of situation in the next few years, but until then I wish others in similar unfortunate circumstances the best of luck.

 

Hi Michael,

 

Thanks for updating the thread to confirm that this matter has now been resolved for you.

 

As you'll appreciate, when dealing with rare instances such as this a number of different factors have to be considered before arriving at a decision on the most appropriate course of action to take.

 

Best wishes,

 

Lee

 

Web Relations Team

 

Vodafone UK

[2Grumpy]

Well done to the Daily Mail too for taking up this case

[BankFodder]

Yes.

Maybe some of these companies are starting to "get it".

 

They spend huge amounts of money advertising their products - and yet they try to scrimp on a few thousands on an issue in which they are clearly morally and legally in the wrong and when the story gets on to a forum like this one and then into the papers, their entire advertsing budget is just money down the toilet - and just to save a few grand.

 

Time the customer service departments started talking to the publicity and advertising departments. Everyone wins, the company, the execs within the company who want to show that they can increase revenue and reduce expenses, the advertsing departments which do not have their efforts negated by job's worth penny-pinching customer service, the customer service departments - which I am sure would rather be seen as facilitators rather than guardians of some refund budget and who might just as well be working in a benefits office, .... and of course - The Consumer.

[mcbainhayden]

I would be very interested to speak with someone from Vodafone about my query also. Excuse the length of the email but there is simply too much I need to spill!Recently I went on a trip to Barcelona. My phone was stolen along with my money and various other items in my bag. I was unable to make a call to Vodafone to inform them of this as I had no access to a phone and no money in which to make a call or purchase internet time to email them. I went to the police station to file my report and was also unable to make any calls from there due to costs etc. When my friends form Australia joined me I was then able to use their phone to call vodafone and cancel my phone and inform them of the theft. Vodafone said at this time that no suspicious calls had been made and that they would cancel the phone. At the itme I was not very worried as I had pin protected my phone and assumed that there would be no way of a mugger being able to use the phone, more fool me. Getting back to the UK I was sent a replacement sim card by Vodafone, which I was charged for. Having lost my Iphone 4 which I wasn only halfway through a 24month ocntract of I was unable to afford a new phone so used an old 90's phone I had lying around. Everything seemed to be going very well until a month after I got back form Spain, and upon checking my online banking I see £1000 has been debited from my accoutn from Vodafone. You can Imagine my reaction, I literally burst into tears. They had not only forced me deep into my overdraft facility but a further 500 in the red. I immediately called Vosafone. The first cust reop I spoke to said he could see I had been the victim of fraud and he was escalating the matter to his manager immediately so that I could have the matter resolved. He said as I was unable to report the incident immediately I may be liable for the calls made but that his manager would be able to wipe the calls as a 'gesture of goodwill'. I was slightly relieved for a moment then the phone went dead, I was cut off.So of course I then began explaining my story to the next cust reop in India, 30 mins later and I'm spekaing to the 3rd cust rep reiterating my sotry, sick of my own voice at this point and having to consistently repeat my security info to speak to a new person!The new cust rep said there was absolutely nothing to be done, I am liable and I will pay. I was destrought, and I asked to speak to her manager, she refused. I had to spend 20mins convincing her I have the right to speak to her manager. Finally I ampushed through to a man who is far more aggressive and rude thna neccassary, hardly somone I deem able to easy my worries. He again tells me I am completly liable for all calls and he will do nothing to help the situation. I am highly frustrated at this point and ask to speak to someone in the UK. He spend 25mins telling me I am unable to speak to anyone in the UK, it is a physical impossibilty, I am in utter disbelief, after being on hold for some time he says he will transfer me through, why he pushed it this I have no idea. Finally I speak to a rep in Glasgow, where I'm from! The girl speak with her manager and discusses my case. She notes that the first cust reop I spoke to has escalated the matter and it is possible that the manager will call me back to discuss the 'gesture of goodwill' but for now she cannot help. She did however point me in the direction of my bank to file an indemnity calim to bounce back the direct debit.I immediately phone my bank - The Bank of Scotland - who delat with my matter with the most kind and efficient mannor possible. I cannot say how releived I was to have the indemnity claim happen, I got my money back and the cust reop forwarded me to the financial ombudsman as he was appauled at the way i have been treated by vodafone.Two days later and still no word form Vodafone or amysterious manager call. I do however get a text telling me I will be charged £5 for not paying my direct debit! The cheek! Followed by a call from vodafone asking me why I haven't paid my account bill. After having to, for the 4th time, explain my case to someon he escalates the matter AGAIN to a manager and says I will be called within 48 hours. Next thing I know vodafone haver barred all my outgoing calls and texts. I am outraged, they are charging me fees and barring my calls but not even having the courtesy to call me back!Finally I am called by another 2 days later where agin I explain my case and the man says he still cannot do anything. I explain to him that I have been a customer with vodafone for 4 years, 2 of which were in Australia and I transfered to the UK vodafone becasue I had such great customer service in Australia. I pay £500 a year for my contract, I am a loyal customer, I imagine in the entirity of my future I will be spending rather a lot of money on a phone contract. And for them to treat me this way would be to lose a valuable customer, not only that, but to get a measly £1000 off me which is for fraudulant usage anyway. I am disgusted to be frank. The cust rep says he can do nothing and escalates again to his manager who will call me within 2 hours. So now for the 6th time I am explaining myself to a stranger on the phone. The end on this conversation comes when he offer me 30% off as a 'gesture o fgoodwill', I almost scream with insult. Why would I pay £700 worth of fraudulent calls? I tell him I am going to the financial ombudsman becasue vodafone have been unable to solve my query and he says I am not allowed until he escalates it further to his manager. He saud she will ring me on Mon/Tue. It's Monday night and I have heard nothing.In my bill I can see all the calls are going to a spanish number obviously filtering the funds into an account, the calls are costing £20-30 each for hours. I am shocked vodafone has no interest in finding out who this number belongs to or how they and funnelling funds into it, shocked more that they have no regard for a longstnading and loyal customer of theirs.I'd like to see a cust rep who might be able to treat me with a bit of respect and call me when they say they will!

[hazfiend]

Well don. Very good news indeed.

 

Well don to VodaFone as well - although as I have said earlier, I believe very firmly that the true legal position is that it is the phone company which is the victim of fraud and that it is unconscionable for them to expect their customers to make up their stolen losses.

 

Well done Vodafone

 

Yeah, nice to see a good resolution.

 

I'm slightly puzzled though, because clearly fraud took place and it seems to me that Vodafone should just refuse to pay the call charges incurred within that fraud until it had been established that their customer was fraudulent. The next link in the chain (vodafone SA?) would also refuse to pay money to (Kosovo?) while the dispute was unresolved, and the fraudsters would be unlikely to prove their case in any rational court.

 

This isn't about Vodafone as such.

 

I can see how, taking a cut of the fraud, lots of others would like to help the fraud along rather than just prevent it.

 

Should the people responsible include the owner of the phone that is "stolen" then they are relatively easy to arrest.

[Lee Vodafone Company Rep]

Hi all,

 

It's just a quick update to this thread to confirm that mcbainhayden's concerns have been resolved as per their posts here.

 

Thanks,

 

Lee

 

Web Relations Team

 

Vodafone UK