Cobbetts Cpr part 18 request/CPR part 16.4.1

[progenic7]

I kind of agree and disagree here. I have spoken to my other halfs sister, who was the Head of Legal at a major credit card on the very crux of this issue.

 

These are the key issues on this matter:

 

1. You can highlight the acts (do you mean the terms you deem unfair, surely an act cant be unfair can it ?)that you deem unfair, as they are the banks acts and a term of contract,well wether or not there is actually a contract in the first place, if so in what form does it take, or is it simply the terms and conditions therefore they are deemed to be fully aware of them, irrespective to whether you do or dont, as long as you can furnish these acts to the courts, if requested, during trial. sorry i dont agree, you must state the case in hand, its like saying murder when you mean fraud, everyone needs to know the facts in hand

2. You shouldnt need to state the exact terms in your POC, not unless requested by the court to do so standard and proper procedure would expect you to state the Terms if your stating which statute you are using.

3. Also should you need to, then the acts can and should be used in court, to which, you direct these acts, as a point of contention, to the Defendant, namely the bank, where they are obliged under oath to satisfy the needs of the court. Under CPR the defence is allowed to know what your argument entails in advance, ie the whole point of the defence lodging a defence

 

As with any legal case, if a precedence has been set, where claimants have successfully lodged and won a case against the bank, then surely it should be considered acceptable to quote, without fully stating, the terms of which you are basing your claim against?

 

sorry i dont agree, following sloppy and rushed PoC's just because someone else managed to get away with it simply isnt the best idea. As cobbets must be laughing themselves silly, Not only that and more importantly the CAG site is trying to make everyone look well versed in this. It simply makes the Site look bad and the advice it gives incorrect. We want all CAG members to get it right from the start, to understand what they are doing, and have their arguments set straight in their minds.

Just because some of the banks havnt really made a big deal of a bad PoC, doesnt mean they will always do this.

Im sure they realise that thats the case, they just dont want to risk the court procedure, as afterall they would still have to prove their costs.

I personally think this is very important for everyone, and like i said i wasnt trying to put anybody down.

Sometimes in the excitement of it all we can get carried away, and when we see that someone else's PoC has passed the test, then we make assumptions.

This can all be easily sorted though, just take your time and read up and read some more. Try and find your own arguments and bits to add to a PoC. The larger you make the PoC the better chance there is of the defence messing up.

Get lots of people to check it, and if necessary ask them to make amendments till everyones happy.

IMHO anyways

[Movingon]

sorry i dont agree, following sloppy and rushed PoC's just because someone else managed to get away with it simply isnt the best idea. As cobbets must be laughing themselves silly, Not only that and more importantly the CAG site is trying to make everyone look well versed in this. It simply makes the Site look bad and the advice it gives incorrect. We want all CAG members to get it right from the start, to understand what they are doing, and have their arguments set straight in their minds.

Just because some of the banks havnt really made a big deal of a bad PoC, doesnt mean they will always do this.

Im sure they realise that thats the case, they just dont want to risk the court procedure, as afterall they would still have to prove their costs.

 

I personally think this is very important for everyone, and like i said i wasnt trying to put anybody down.

Sometimes in the excitement of it all we can get carried away, and when we see that someone else's PoC has passed the test, then we make assumptions.

 

This can all be easily sorted though, just take your time and read up and read some more. Try and find your own arguments and bits to add to a PoC. The larger you make the PoC the better chance there is of the defence messing up.

Get lots of people to check it, and if necessary ask them to make amendments till everyones happy.

 

IMHO anyways

 

So - what you're essentially saying is, don't use MCOL, because it does not allow a "proper" POC to be entered. You need an N1 and possibly a continuation sheet.

[progenic7]

Tom,

 

in a word - Yes

[Movingon]

Tom,

 

in a word - Yes

 

OK... but I think (call me a layman *hawk SPIT* if you like) that as a sole litigant in person, I should be allowed some leeway in such matters by the court; and I believe I'll get it. I admit that the Judge can't be expected to figure out EVERYTHING to do with my claim, but a certain lack of facility in putting together a legally watertight POC should be excused. I think that Judges are very lenient when it comes to cases like ours, because they know we're not backed up by fancy lawyers like the banks are. So - if I haven't pointed out the T&C which I refer to in the POC, and if I haven't highlighted the para, sub-para and sentence in the Judgements I refer to - forgive me for expecting the judge to be at least passingly familiar with it. Most of what we're dealing with here is ELEMENTARY civil Law; the sort of stuff done by junior Law students in year one and two. There's nothing complex about it; so the Judges will be more than familiar with most of it. I agree that pointing everything out will be helpful; but don't think you'll fail in your case if you don't do it to the standard of a Barrister.

[progenic7]

Stonelaughter, hi BTW.

 

agreed and point taken, and on another couple of threads we have discussed this before and come to the same conclusions.

Yes as litigant in person the judge will almost certainly give a degree of leeway on this matter. And im sure in 90% of cases he will see straight through what the defence is trying to do.

 

Having said all that (and the real reason i think its important) i think its a good excerise to research the subject matter, like you said yourself this isnt rocket science and can be picked up in a couple of months easy.

 

i have noticed too many people copy and pasting PoC's without the first clue what their doing, as some sort of get rich quick scheme.

I ust think if a jobs worth doing its worth doing properly, and though hopefully it wont happen for most, if you do have to go to court it would be a good idea to know what your talking about.

 

But for the worriers out there, if your wondering if it will effect your claim, probably not.

 

actually there may be a humerous point here maybe someone could try and make a new act up just to see if the claim gets paid on. Then maybe we could just resort to shouting death threats down the phone...seems anything works these days

 

But if there is anyone out there that wants to get it correct first time, especially if your an RBS or Natwest claiment and want to look like you know what your talking about, it may be a good idea to state what term or clause you challenge in the banks own terms.

 

all ofcourse IMHO and FWIW, no offence intended throughout

[mletizz]

Hi all,

 

in need of yet another question answered, i got my check in the post and i have not yet cancelled the court, i have placed the check in the bank, i have not yet signed and returned the slip that cobbets have asked me too.

what i want to know is...........

 

Can i write back to cobbets and demand my charges back from october when i put the claim in, until the date on the letter/check (nearly 900quid)

can i say to them i will not sign the form and i am still going to go to court until all charges have been paid up to date???

or can i not do this???

 

please help

[pollyjohnson]

You might find that accepting the cheque and banking it is full settlement.

To claim for additional charges I would imagine you will need to make another claim

[Advoc8]

If there have been extra charges levied on your account since you made your claim and they're not on the schedule of charges then you need to go back to step 1.

[Movingon]

Absolutely yes; but don't think that by accepting the first claim you are removing your right to make NEW claims! You absolutely should start a new claim for the new charges. However, make mention of the fact that you have already taken them to court and that they failed to defend and ultimately paid you out; you may find a cheque is a lot quicker arriving this time. However, you may also find them digging their heels in even more than last time - who knows?

 

Anyway - get your letter written, and if I were you I would be looking for a new bank

[alimehmet]

My case took an amazing turn today. I wrote to the courts on the 26th February asking the judge to complain about Cobbetts delay tactics. I received a letter this morning from the Courts, some 11 days after I sent my letter, to inform me that they are unable to locate the Court file at the present time. Also that my letter will be processed within the next ten working days. So that means I have to wait another 2 weeks for them to respond to my letter of 26th February.

 

Is this standard court procedure, that they:-

 

1. Take 11 days to respond to acknowledge a letter?

2. Inform you that they have lost your Court file?

3. That I have to another 10 working days for a response to my origiinal complaint?

 

What should I do in this instance, any advice would be appreciated?

 

thanks

Ali

[Advoc8]

It shouldn't be standard court procedure! You could write to the court manager and complain.

[alimehmet]

It shouldn't be standard court procedure! You could write to the court manager and complain.

 

already drafted my letter. It also means they would have lost of all Cobbetts papers also, so what has taken 3 months as a process, means I may be back to square 1. If that is the case, I should expect more delay tactics!!!

[sg51bmw]

If this is still on then counme in.. Fighting nat west, at the same stage as a lot of you guys - sending the wicked letter Martin 3030 quotes, but...Cobbets do send a very threatning letter, especially for those who don't have access to a forum like this...by the way Nat west offered £6,600, we refused..our claim is £8,498, not including 8% interest, claim split between me and my wife to keep it under 5k small claims threshhold (jt account)

 

Keep the free information highway alive!

 

sg51bmw

[alimehmet]

yay they found my file

 

got an update from the Court, there is a letter from the Judge to both parties, the letter is a consent for a "Order for Directions".

 

Which will mean I have 14 days to send again what I have already sent to Cobbetts and the bank twice now

 

Any suggestions?

 

ali

[Movingon]

Just keep going Ali - send it again. Make sure it's all ready to go and nicely polished.

[alimehmet]

Just keep going Ali - send it again. Make sure it's all ready to go and nicely polished.

 

Hi Stone

 

No chance of stopping, once I got my letter from the judge, i will post it on here for feedback. Stone do you know where I can find a template response on here?

 

thanks

Ali

[Movingon]

Hi Stone

 

No chance of stopping, once I got my letter from the judge, i will post it on here for feedback. Stone do you know where I can find a template response on here?

 

thanks

Ali

 

LOL template response? No - this is a very unusual situation. Post the letter when you have it and what response you propose and we'll try to guide you in a proper direction - but there are only templates for the situations which occur a lot

[SuJ]

PLease guys I need some help,

This morning I received a letter from cobbetts which reads:-

..........Pursuant to CPR part 3.4 (2) (a), the defendant would ask the court to strike out the claim. The Claimant has not shown that he has reasonable grounds for bringing the claim and despite the Defendant requesting that the Claimant remedy the lack of particularity pleaded in the particulars of Claim within 14 days, the Claimant has failed to do so. The Defendant therefore respectfully requests that the claim be struck out.

In the alternative, the Defendant would request the Court to order that unless the Claimant serves fully pleaded Particulars of Claim within 14 days of service of an order of the Court, the claim be struck out. Should the Court be minded to grant such an Unless Order, the Defendant would also request permission to amend, file and serve its defence within a period of 14 days of receipt of The Claimants Particulars of Claim and for the matter to be referred back to the district Judge for further directions once the amended Defence has been filed.'

 

HELP!? I don't even understand half of this letter, what's an 'Unless Order'?

 

Have I done something wrong, are they threatening me with action?

 

Sorry it's such a long message but am really panicking now...but then I suppose that was the reaction they were looking for!

[Advoc8]

An unless order is an order from the court telling you that unless you do X (in this case amend the particulars) they will do Y (in this case strike out the claim).

 

They're saying that they requested more details from you and you haven't complied. Do you have your own thread for this claim so more information can be provided and more specific advice can be given?

[SuJ]

No I don't but I will start one now.

I'm very grateful for all help, thanks

[alimehmet]

LOL template response? No - this is a very unusual situation. Post the letter when you have it and what response you propose and we'll try to guide you in a proper direction - but there are only templates for the situations which occur a lot

 

 

Hi Guys

 

I can see the light at the end of the tunnel here, and had what I think is great news from the courts today.

 

The judge has Consented to my Draft Order for Directions, which I submitted with my AQ. I now have 14 days to send to the Defendant and to the Court

 

a) A Schedule setting each charge repayment of which is sought, showing the date, amount, and reason given (if any) for the change being made - Sorted, will include schedule of charges again

 

b) Copies of any statement or other document relieved upon as showing that each and every charge has made

Sorted, will send copies all bank statements with charges highlighted

 

c) A statement of evidence of all matters relied upon as tending to show that the charges are irrecoverable as penalties or otherwise

Need Help Here - any examples of this statement?

 

d) Copies of decided cases and other legal materials to be relied upon

Need Help Here- any examples I can send?

 

This is quite a sizeable claim, approx £12K so want to make sure I do this right, so any help would be appreciated

 

thanks

Ali

[Foxwold]

Hi I got this defence today, Im not sure if its different to everyone elses, do I need to send them anything if so what?

 

Defence

 

1. This defence is filed and served without prejudice to the defendants cast that the particulars of Claim do not disclose reasonable grounds for bringing a claim against the defendant to recover the bank charges. In the event that the claim is not properly particularised then the defendant will apply to strike out the claim and/or for summary judgement in respect of the same.

 

2. Without prejudice to the non-admission set out in the foregoing paragraph, if and to the extent that the claiment proves the allegation that the defendant debited charges to the claimants bank account, insofar as such charges were debited on a date or dates more than six years prior to the issue of this claim, any remedy in respect of the same, wheather damages, restitution or otherwise, is barred byt the same operation of the limitation Act 1980 and/or the doctrine of laches and the defendant will apply to strike out this aspect of the claim and/or for summary judgment.

 

3. On allocation the defendant invites the Court to direct that there be a case management conference in order for the court to consider the making of appropriate orders to give the claimant the opportunity to properly particularise his claim.

 

........

 

I havent at this stage sent any copies of my statments, just a copy of the spread sheet with the dates of each charge.

 

I also only had 3 years worth of statments just just really doubled the figure (in line with the bbc's advise) to get a 6 year figure & added interest.

 

Can any one help & tell me what they think I should be doing or would be able to point me in the right direction where to look.

 

Thanks

 

Foxwold

[Advoc8]

Hi,

 

First it's recommended you start your own thread for this so claims don't get mixed up.

 

Secondly nothing you need to do about the defence - the court will send you instructions for what happens next (though they may be a bit cryptic).

 

What I would do though is try and obtain the missing 3 years statements.

[nsn152213]

Hi, just to let you all know, i received a letter from Cobbetts saying that they were embarrassed by the lack of particulars of my claim. i was a bit worried as they said they were asking for the claim to be struck out. after advice i was told that i needed to resubmit my whole claim and pay the court fees again, but luckily i did not follow that advice and ended up not responding to Cobbetts. the claim still proceeded and when it got to the stage of the court becomming involved, all it needed was for me to send a letter to the court updating my particulars, which i did. it is a stressful process, but i am sure it will be worthwile as my total charges come to £2400! i have received a court date for 24th April so i will keep you all updated on the progress of my claim

[stevepm]

Hi all I have also received the terror tactics from Cobbetts. I have used the draft response but also I am going to send a copy to the court and make a formal complaint to the law society. I have told Cobbetts this in the letter. I am waiting for my Court Questionnaire. But people are right when I got it it did actually scare me for two seconds before I became really angry so have now started to reclaim all charges for my whole family again against Nasty West

 

Stevepm