So-called 'doubt' regarding Availability for Work

[JayVelin]

I recently made a fresh claim for JSA. I did it on-line. Later that day, I received an SMS advising me about the date and time of the interview. It was the same day. I rang to see if I could get it re-arranged as it was very inconvenient. The appointment was re-arranged. However, at the interview, I was informed that there was a 'doubt' about my availability for work on that day because I had asked for the appointment to be re-arranged. The matter was now with a 'decision maker'.

 

The decision maker doesn't appear to require any further information. I suspect they will assess the matter entirely according to the system.

 

In my experience, decisions are never adequately explained, which makes it difficult to know how best to approach an appeal.

 

Does anybody know what would constitute grounds for appeal?

 

(I imagine most appeals spend too much time complaining about the system, or missing the point. For instance, I would dearly like to make them aware that ringing up to re-arrange an appointment made at short notice is quite a reasonable course of action and not the same as refusing to attend, or failing to attend, nor is it analogous to a job interview or job offer - they're quite different.)

[flumps1976]

This is standard procedure, they are tightening up the regulations and my workload has certainly increased as a result of this. Basically as soon as you make your application you are required to be activeky seeking and available to attend any appointments that are booked for you.

If the doubt is decided that you can not be treated as available for the period in question you can request a reconsideration if you have further information to provide if not it will be an appeal.

[JayVelin]

Thanks, Flumps.

 

The equivalence between a fresh claim interview and a job interview or a job offer is highly tenuous, even more so with regard to a same-day fresh claim appointment. If you were offered a job that same day, you would have no choice but change your plans; the standard interview regarding a fresh claim for JSA could just as easily be scheduled for the next working day (and frequently are), and thus, there cannot be said to by any necessity for the interview to take place at the first time proposed. The same-day appointment when used as a test of availability is a blunt instrument.

 

Signing a document saying you were seeking and available for work (etc) from that date should be enough unless there is substantial evidence that you were 'unavailable'. (I mean, I was not told I would 'lose benefit' if I did not attend.)

 

What further information could one possibly have?

[frank_begbie]

How low can they go.

Its just another way to trap you, so they can stop your benefit and save a bit of money.

[andydd]

What surprised me when I was signing on is they'd even start to get bitchy when you had a legitimate interview to go to !, like you should give the job center top priority !

 

Andy

[Nystagmite]

How low can they go.

Its just another way to trap you, so they can stop your benefit and save a bit of money.

 

But if you appeal, it's going to cost so much more.

[antone]

What surprised me when I was signing on is they'd even start to get bitchy when you had a legitimate interview to go to !, like you should give the job center top priority !

 

Andy

 

Anyone remember the TV show The League of Gentlemen? Specifically the Pauline character?

 

Turns out that was a documentary...

[insyder]

This is not new. If you are unable to attend your new claim and rebook it then the TAM (treat as made) date would be moved to the new appointment date and you would have to request a backdate the period of the original date you contacted them and the day before the rebooked appointment. This has long been the case but as flumps states they are tightening up on this action being correctly carried out at the jobcentre. It is not unheard of for a staff member to ignore this and allow a claim to go through with the original date. (this is one of many things the staff do, that customers are unaware of, in their favour)

[antone]

It is not unheard of for a staff member to ignore this and allow a claim to go through with the original date. (this is one of many things the staff do, that customers are unaware of, in their favour)

 

Notwithstanding my post above, which was intended as humour, I wanted to highlight this. I regard this clampdown as petulant and counterproductive - that's a personal opinion, and it's what I was trying to get across.

 

But still, it is worth noting, we do (or in my case, did) often bend rules in favour of claimants. Or we'll go to the wall with a manager arguing for a FEP payment for a particular claimant who needs money urgently. Or turn the office upside down looking for a missing Med3. Or...whatever.

[insyder]

@Antone. Apologies if my post came across as attacking yours, it wasn't - I loved Pauline, I just felt that some balancing of the scales was necessary here.

[antone]

@Antone. Apologies if my post came across as attacking yours, it wasn't - I loved Pauline, I just felt that some balancing of the scales was necessary here.

 

Sure, no apologies needed - I didn't take that as an attack. I was just trying to highlight your point that a lot of what JCP staff do is unseen by claimants, and most of it is not motivated by a desire to harm them.

 

My favourite case that I took to the wire was a foreign national who was sectioned and also being told he wasn't habitually resident - despite the fact that the UK authorities wouldn't let him return to his home country.

[Tiger Lily]

How low can they go.

Its just another way to trap you, so they can stop your benefit and save a bit of money.

 

DWP staff are not on commission you know,

its so much easier to pay the customer if possible. job done.

[andydd]

Anyone remember the TV show The League of Gentlemen? Specifically the Pauline character?

 

Turns out that was a documentary...

 

Yes..the phrase "Morning Jobseekers" went through my mind every time I entered the Job Center

[JayVelin]

It would be so much easier, so much more reasonable, and frankly respectful, to respond to a polite request to re-arrange a fresh-claim interview for the next available day. Job done. Instead, it's treated no differently to not showing up at all, treated as proof of not being available for work, although a fresh-claim interview is categorically not a job interview or a job offer or any such thing.

 

Aggravation and extra paper-work introduced unnecesarily. But the department will save almost £50.

 

Job done?

[flumps1976]

The problem is now that yes we were previously allowed to use our discretion, however some members of staff we found to be using discretion as a way of getting out doing work and also in favour of friends that they were trying to help in favour of someone they didn't know.

Basically those of us who then were following the guidance were being verbally abused and in some cases physically attacked (which is far from unacceptable anywhere in any organisation).

Management became involved and decided that discretion can no longer be used and everyone is to work in line with the guidance, that way no one can come in saying they have been treated any differently or unfairly.

[JayVelin]

Also ...

 

Interesting to hear that JC staff are able to exercise discretion sometimes. I guess discretion is more likely to be used in cases of urgent need or injustice than matters such as mine.

 

My interview was re-arranged for five days later (the original was on the Friday and it was a bank holiday). Given the time elapsed and the so-called 'doubt' regarding availability, I would've expected to have been asked what I'd done to look for work in the interim. I wasn't. I fear the re-arranged interview was being treated as the first day of the claim and the 'doubt' was in effect a 'certainty'.

 

Losing five days of benefit would be quite a penalty.

 

Is there any way around this? Can I ask for a reconsideration before an appeal? Would I have to do that in person at the office? If it must be an appeal, what kind of argument or information could I supply in support of the appeal?

 

(It's one thing for there to be a 'doubt' about availability on the day I first made the claim, but what about he next four days? How on earth do you show you were available on those days - on the other hand, on what evidence can they claim that you weren't available on those days?)

[JayVelin]

That's a very sad story about the loss of discretion.

 

However, I have to point out that it remains possible (perhaps likely) that clients will be treated unfairly. The system does not fit every situation and in some areas is patently unreasonable. This could be ameliorated by discretion.

Edited May 12, 2012 by JayVelin

[Feebee_71]

Similar (but equally different)..........

 

When I had my ESA withdrawn for failing the medical I contacted the JSA helpline by phone to switch to JSA on the day I received the letter from ESA. I asked for the date of commencement to be from the date stated on the ESA letter as being when it was paid until so that I had a continuous claim and also because I was applying from the earliest opportunity - being the day the letter arrived on my doorstep!!

 

When I went to my sign on appointment the following Tuesday (the call went in on the Friday) I was told that they couldn't be sure that my reason for asking for a backdated claim date so it would go to a DM who would decide if there was sufficient reason for me to delay my claim (Hmm - have they never heard of the Act of Interpretation or whatever it is we all rely on that states a letter is deemed received xx days after sending depending on whether 1st or 2nd class postage is used?)

 

Anyway, in the end, my backdated claim was allowed but it took them 3 1/2 weeks before they made their decision.

 

Feebee_71

[flumps1976]

JayVelin the discretion has been removed for quite some time now, all decisions have to be referred unless the reason for requesting the rearranged appointment is specified on a form used in the JCP. If the reason is not on that form then it has to be referred regardless and unfortunately job interview is not on that form so no matter how ridculous the referral has to be made. I would like to think that I could use my discretion under common sense but that decision has been removed from the local office and lies with the DMA team now.

[antone]

DWP staff are not on commission you know,

its so much easier to pay the customer if possible. job done.

 

This bears restating. To your average AO, it's so much easier to pay the customer than to have to explain why you can't. Most processors will pay any claim they can, because it's just a job. Yes, sometimes you just can't pay, the rules won't allow it. But if I could ever find a way to make a payment, I would. I, and my colleagues, were not sadists. We did not enjoy telling people we couldn't issue payment.

 

Of course, I'm out of the loop now, but unless the DWP has recruited a bunch of sociopaths in the meantime, I'm going to assume that hasn't changed.

[antone]

Yes..the phrase "Morning Jobseekers" went through my mind every time I entered the Job Center

 

I was trying to find the scene where Mickey tells Pauline he has an interview, to be told he can't possibly find a job if he doesn't attend his Restart course. The notion that a DMA referral is needed when someone has a bleepin' job interview is so absurd even I can't visualise the process that led to anyone thinking this was a good idea.

[MIKEY DABODEE]

This bears restating. To your average AO, it's so much easier to pay the customer than to have to explain why you can't. Most processors will pay any claim they can, because it's just a job. Yes, sometimes you just can't pay, the rules won't allow it. But if I could ever find a way to make a payment, I would. I, and my colleagues, were not sadists. We did not enjoy telling people we couldn't issue payment.

 

Of course, I'm out of the loop now, but unless the DWP has recruited a bunch of sociopaths in the meantime, I'm going to assume that hasn't changed.

 

well said Antone you may be out the Loop now but its exactly like that still.

 

1.S, the target to process a new claim ten days, from receipt to payment,

changes sixty three changes a day, this can mean post, phone calls, work availables.

we have to be quick but accurate to meet these target.

One of the changes can take five minutes to action, another up to an hour if complicated.

 

staff are dwindling but the work isnt.

but we are lucky because we have a job for now so not moaning about that

 

So If you can get the job done first time round then do it, because the longer it goes on the more complicated it becomes

Edited May 13, 2012 by MIKEY DABODEE

[JayVelin]

No, they don't seem like sociopaths.

 

(But it doesn't matter how polite and efficient the staff might be, if the system is disrespectful.)

[MIKEY DABODEE]

maybe Univeral Credit will be the answer then to everbodies prayers.

who knows

[osdset]

maybe Univeral Credit will be the answer then to everbodies prayers.

who knows

 

For Universal Credit read Universal Cockup.