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Manual Intervention......needs explaining please!


bonniebergin
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Apologies moderators, i do have a seperate thread in OI headed 'MINT......' for this but have not had any suggestions.

 

I have received a letter from MINT asking the following:

 

' With reference to your second paragraph, please explain your interpretation of the term 'manual intervention' and advise your exact requirements in this respect'

 

I'm not 100% on how to reply to this. Can anyone help. I've checked out FAQ's etc and not found an answer.

 

Many thanks and apologies again for starting new thread.

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Strange that they don't know what it means but basically it is when a PERSON rather than a computer has been onvolved in your account, we need this info to press further the point of unlawful charges, in other words, if you looked at a charge on your account and it involved the work of 3 people for a few days then Mint may be right in saying it cost them £15 in wages, time etc (although this is unheard of).

 

The main thing is to get them to say there has been no or very little manual intervention on the account thus proving that charges are based on a computer going beep rather than a days work for 2 people.

 

I don't know how I would reply to them though, maybe ask them to pass your request to a department that can deal with it, their legal dept maybe?

 

Or say this, definition:

 

Manual: Employing human rather than mechanical energy

Intervention: To involve oneself in a situation so as to alter or hinder an action or development

Ex CAG helper ^_^

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Sorry, I missed your previous post, apologies.

 

It's really simple: You want them to show you where it says whenever someone has had to look at your account, and intervene to either stop or permit a transaction because you'd gone over your limit. You want the date and time where that intervention was logged, the name or initials or the person(s) in the decision-making, and so on.

You want to also specify to them that in the event of their failure to provide the above info, it will be taken as an admission that there has been no such intervention.

That should do it.:D

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Jackie Scott of Abbey has today told me this meaning of manual intervention - see http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?p=22710#post22710 for details.

 

"You have also asked for details of any "manual interventions" that there may have been on your account. Although I am not entirely clear as to what information it is that you require, I am taking a "manual intervention" to be any action taken with regard to your account other than an automatic or computer-driven action.

 

You will appreciate that first of all, not all manual interventions on your account will be recorded. For example, if a member of staff looks at a paper document relating to your account, a record of activity will not always be made. Moreover, an "intervention" may be carried out by any one of a large number of departments in Abbey. There is no central record of such interventions because this is not the kind of information we usually need not, more importantly, information that a customer would normal (sic) request.

 

I regret therefore that I am unable to supply detailed information of any manual intervention. I am sorry for any inconvenience this may cause."

 

My reply is going to be is does that mean any abbey employee can look at any part of my details and do what they want without any kind of tracking or audit trail?

Abbey (Charges on 3 accounts and default on my credit record) - DPA letter sent 30/03/06 - 40 days limit is 9th May - Recieved DPA printouts 05/04/06 with microfiche "fob off" letter. <p>Barclaycard (Charges on 1 account and default on my credit record) - DPA letter sent 03/04/06 - 40 days limit is 13th May - Recieved some statements 08/04/06 along with DPA printout and a microfiche "fob off" letter. Claim for £340 sent 11/04/06

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I wouldn't worry about replying.

 

What you want is for them to not be able to use "manual intervention" as an excuse for charges. If they can't supply proof of the intervention, they can't use that as an excuse. That's it. If there is no manual intervention, the "genuine pre-estimate of loss" excuse falls flat as no judge is going to believe it would cost £35, or even £12 (!) for an automated system to spew out a letter. If the charge isn't a genuine pre-estimate, it's a penalty. And another line of defense bites the dust.

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They are saying they don't record manual interventions so then that means they can't prove any were made doesn't it? Good stuff then!

Abbey (Charges on 3 accounts and default on my credit record) - DPA letter sent 30/03/06 - 40 days limit is 9th May - Recieved DPA printouts 05/04/06 with microfiche "fob off" letter. <p>Barclaycard (Charges on 1 account and default on my credit record) - DPA letter sent 03/04/06 - 40 days limit is 13th May - Recieved some statements 08/04/06 along with DPA printout and a microfiche "fob off" letter. Claim for £340 sent 11/04/06

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Pretty much.

 

Imagine the day in court:

 

"Yer honour (yeah, I know it wdn't be, but indulge me), we charge £35 because of all the manual interventions".

 

"I see. Can you show me an example?"

 

"Er, no... we don't actually keep a record."

 

:D

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I was a registered nurse for 9 years and it was drummed into us that "care not documented equals care not given".

Basically if we ended up in court and said we had done something and we hadn't written it down we couldn't prove we had done it. Interesting parallel for me.

Abbey (Charges on 3 accounts and default on my credit record) - DPA letter sent 30/03/06 - 40 days limit is 9th May - Recieved DPA printouts 05/04/06 with microfiche "fob off" letter. <p>Barclaycard (Charges on 1 account and default on my credit record) - DPA letter sent 03/04/06 - 40 days limit is 13th May - Recieved some statements 08/04/06 along with DPA printout and a microfiche "fob off" letter. Claim for £340 sent 11/04/06

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They have the ability to record every action against your account. If they haven't done that then I can only see how it equals one of about three of things:

 

- They haven't made any manual interventions, and any actions carried out were automated.

- The actions literally took a few seconds to make a decision, and the employee didn't feel it was worth recording.

- The employee was neglible in their actions. When dealing with your account and your finances, they failed to record their actions.

 

The first option would mean that the real costs amounted to the sending of the letter.

 

The second option would mean that it literally cost the bank a few extra pence in time.

 

If the bank try to go down the path of the third option (which I doubt they would), then it raises a whole host of other questions. Ask them if they are accredited to any ISO or similar standards. Ask them for registration numbers and the exact standards they are registered to, as you would like to report them for possible breach of those standards. One of the key areas of ISO standards is being auditable and having a trail of actions that can be followed.

 

If they can't provide proof that manual intervention has taken place, then it has to be concluded that it probably didn't. Even if manual intervention did take place, to make a decision on whether to return a DD/standing order/whatever would only take a few minutes. Even if it took one employee an entire hour working solidly on your account, and that employee was paid £15 an hour, the real costs are only £15 - not £30. The likelyhood of an bank employee spending a solid hour to make such a decision for one customer is unrealistic.

£2,352 + interest + costs claim from HSBC:

29/12: Re-started process.

January/February: Letters, LBA, etc sent.

12/3: Deadlines passed.

2/4: Court papers served.

26/4: Defence submitted.

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You will appreciate that first of all, not all manual interventions on your account will be recorded. For example, if a member of staff looks at a paper document relating to your account, a record of activity will not always be made. Moreover, an "intervention" may be carried out by any one of a large number of departments in Abbey. There is no central record of such interventions because this is not the kind of information we usually need not, more importantly, information that a customer would normal (sic) request.

 

I regret therefore that I am unable to supply detailed information of any manual intervention. I am sorry for any inconvenience this may cause."

 

Hmm. If I were you I would(!) reply highlighting the inconsistency in this statement. They have said that because not all manual intervention is recorded, they can't provide evidence of any.

 

Secondly - Point out that simply looking at a piece of paper is NOT an intervention. Doing something or changing something tangible IS an intervention, and if it's going on with your account, and it's not recorded as to WHO WHEN WHAT WHY WHERE and HOW - Why the hell not

 

Ask them if they would accept that with their finances? What if their pay was short one month, and they were told that there was some manual intervention but sorry, we can't tell you who changed it, when or for what reason. This is ridiculous and a huge insult to your intelligence. Don't let it pass. Or simply ignore this BS and report to the Information Commissioner.

 

Martin

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  • 12 years later...

This topic was closed on 03/07/19.

If you have a problem which is similar to the issues raised in this topic, then please start a new thread and you will get help and support there.

If you would like to post up some information which is relevant to this particular topic then please flag the issue up to the site team and the thread will be reopened.

- Consumer Action Group

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