LloydsTSB/Wescots - can't locate CCAs for three loan accounts

[impecunious]

Wescots are the latest in a very long time of DCAs chasing outstanding balance for loan account on behalf of LloydsTSB.

 

Although I have successfully reclaimed PPI refunds in respect of all three loans, LloydsTSB cannot provide me with copies of the 3 loan agreements - from 2002 through to 2005. They have sent me one reconstituted CCA but I believe that they have to be originals or real copies from that time to be enforceable in a court of law. Am I right???

 

Wescots have sent me copy statements of my loan accounts and are demanding payment.

We've been playing letter ping-pong for months now.

 

I have already advised them that the account is in dispute and they have referred back to LloydsTSB who insist there is no dispute. However, Westcots are still chasing. I understand that they can ask me for the outstanding balance but Lloyds can't take it to court because they cannot produce enforceable CCAs.

 

My preferred method of communication is in writing. I can tell Wescots til the cows come home but still they insist that I call them to arrange a standing order/repayment plan/etc, I persevere though. (I have no landline and my mobile signal gets lost in the country!) NOT that I would actually talk to them anyway.

 

If reconstituted CCAs are in order for these old loan accounts - I will offer them token payments each month.

 

Thanks

 

 

 

Impecunious!

[dx100uk]

when was YOUR last payment on these

[SWLABR9]

It rather sounds like you should be ignoring the DCAs completely and dealing only with Lloyds. If they could take you to court, would they not have done so? The fact they haven't suggests to me they know very well these debts are lawfully irrecoverable and that's why they're putting the frighteners on you.

[brokebutnotbeatn]

A reconstituted agreement has to be accurate but is acceptable under a CCA 1974 request. So you need to ask them under CPUTR whether they hold an original agreement or not. In court if its argued properly and robustly they do have to produce original agreements but you would have to prepare your case well. it does sound as if they do not have the originals and therefore if you make it clear you know your rights they would be foolish to pursue you through the courts.

[SWLABR9]

How exactly would the banks establish the accuracy of any copy if they couldn't produce the original? I'm not quibbling, I'm simply wondering how they'd approach it.

[brokebutnotbeatn]

They can't. Since Carey there is the assumption that a recon will do. Jusges are not infalible unfortunately; if they are told by the claimant that a recon will do and the defence is not adequeately prepared then the judge will go on the balance of probabilities and find in favour if the claimant.

[SWLABR9]

Carey? And how would one adequately prepare to argue against a reconstruction of something they could never prove existed in the first place? Again, I'm not arguing, I'm just getting deeper into procedure here.

[impecunious]

when was YOUR last payment on these

 

 

They're not statute-barred if that's what you're getting at -- the last payment was made 3 years ago.

 

I don't have a problem with coming to an arrangement to start repaying Lloyds but it would only be a token payment and only after I've very firmly established that the CCAs are enforceable. After all, it's only a credit debt and there are oh so many priority debts to pay off first!!

 

Thanks

 

 

Impecunious!

[impecunious]

It rather sounds like you should be ignoring the DCAs completely and dealing only with Lloyds. If they could take you to court, would they not have done so? The fact they haven't suggests to me they know very well these debts are lawfully irrecoverable and that's why they're putting the frighteners on you.

 

Thanks - have you ever tried communicating with LloydsTSB?? It's like pulling teeth. I've written complaints about the way they've handled complaints about my complaints! And there's never any resolution.

 

Their DCAs are so much easier to manage.

 

I'm not at all frightened - it's only debt. And what I've gleaned from CAG over the years is how to manage it. I rather think the DCAs are frightened of me! They keep running scared and passing the account back to LloydsTSB. I think it's because I sound as if I know what I'm talking about.

 

Thanks for all the input

 

 

 

Impecunious!

 

My kiddies call me Mummy Rottweiler!

[brokebutnotbeatn]

They don't have to argue against a recon, the argument is against them trying to enforce a claim through the courts without an original agreement. Properly prepared the recon is a red herring...

[citizenB]

You say you have reclaimed PPI successfully on all 3 loans - in which case they MUST have something that they can refer back to !

 

I am also rather surprised that they didnt refund the PPI to the accounts if they were in default ?

[impecunious]

You say you have reclaimed PPI successfully on all 3 loans - in which case they MUST have something that they can refer back to !

 

I am also rather surprised that they didnt refund the PPI to the accounts if they were in default ?

 

 

I was rather surprised too!!!! LloydsTSB had originally advised in writing that the PPI refund would be offset against my liability - I had no problem with that at all. BUT, they sent me a cheque instead for the full refund - I was only expecting to receive the element that was statutory interest.

 

I was half-expecting them to put a stop on the cheque. I paid it into my parachute account and waited patiently until it had cleared before even thinking of touching a penny of it.

 

Needless to say I had a great Xmas courtesy of LloydsTSB and am using the remainder of the PPI refund as seed money to set up a new business for the future.

 

The left hand at LloydsTSB obviously doesn't know what the right is doing. I obviously still owe them shedloads but they had the opportunity to recoup a huge chunk of money (the PPI refund would have comfortably cleared my the debit balance on my loan account) and failed miserably, so I'm not going to worry too much. They'll have to make do now with token monthly payments.

 

 

 

Impecunious!

[impecunious]

Do Wescot think we're completely stupid? Why would they request that a completed standing order form be returned to their office, so they can then forward to your bank?

 

They pre-complete the standing order form with details of their bank, address, sort-code, reference number but then deliberately omit their account number, making it impossible to set up the standing order without returning the completed form to them! Do they really just want ALL our personal banking details?

 

Obviously, I haven't returned the completed standing order form to them and have instead requested they send me their account number by return.

 

I hate the thought of them having my personal banking details or even paying them at all --- BUT, they're collecting on behalf of LloydsTSB - Lloyds won't entertain any correspondence.

 

Sighs!! The S/O is only going to be for a £1/month away. I don't even send S/Os to my bank anymore, I just do it all online.

 

Impecunious!

[rameses_qc]

Yes, Wescot think you're stupid. They think everyone's stupid. They just want your bank details and don't let them have any of it. I would send them a £1 coin by post (no stamp on the envelope)

NEVER NEVER NEVER give any DCA your bank or card details EVER unless you want your account cleared out in seconds

[impecunious]

Thanks rameses_qc - my thoughts entirely. I'm neither stupid nor naive, so Wescot can go jump!

 

I really just wanted to alert fellow CAGgers to Wescot's underhand tactics to gain personal banking information ... it looks so innocent on paper and, I should imagine, easy to fall for if you're not aware.

 

Impecunious!

[impecunious]

A reconstituted agreement has to be accurate but is acceptable under a CCA 1974 request. So you need to ask them under CPUTR whether they hold an original agreement or not. In court if its argued properly and robustly they do have to produce original agreements but you would have to prepare your case well. it does sound as if they do not have the originals and therefore if you make it clear you know your rights they would be foolish to pursue you through the courts.

 

In May, I wrote to Wescot asking them to discover whether Lloyds held the three original agreements (outstanding loan account being chased by Wescot) under CPUTR as advised. Lloyds have responded with their usual "blah, blah" about reconstituted agreements being acceptable and if you hadn't signed the original agreement you wouldn't have been given the money BUT no original agreements.

 

I would welcome some advice on my next step. Westcot put their collection on hold pending this dispute but should imagine they'll be coming right back at me.

 

Thanks

 

 

 

Impecunious!

[citizenB]

Are these agreements in connection with the loan on which they refunded the PPI ?

[impecunious]

Yes, they are. Lloyds still hasn't dealt with my complaint about my PPI refund.

 

I have offered to pay Wescot a token payment each month but, so far, they have refused to give me their account number to enable me to set up a standing order payment.

 

Impecunious!

[citizenB]

Sorry, I think I appear to have lost the plot.

 

You have received your cheque from the PPI reclaim - yes ? So what complaint do you still have with them regarding that?

[impecunious]

Although I originally declined their offer for my PPI refund as "derisory", both verbally and in writing, they insisted on sending the cheque and considered the matter closed - that was before Xmas. A close friend, whose day-job is calculating PPI refunds on behalf of Lloyds indicated that Lloyds' offer was approximately £3,000 less than he had calculated.

 

I wrote to the Director dealing with PPI claims and Lloyds Customer Services - 3 times each - with no response to date.

 

Meanwhile, Wescot are still in debt collection mode.

 

 

Impecunious!

[citizenB]

Aha.. righto .. so I only half lost the plot

 

I think you need to write back to LTSB one more time and request they respond to your earlier letter within a specific period of time or to provide you with a final response letter. You can then make your claim to the Ombudsman.

[impecunious]

My thoughts too!! I've kind of put it on a back burner ....... but one more chance wouldn't hurt.

 

Thanks

 

 

Impecunious!