RBoS - to court soon I hope

[Candice 5]

How do you know that your court date is 9th June? I don't remember seeing anything on mine that said I had to go to court at a specific time?

[sparkymark75 1]

I filed mine in person and the clerk told me at that time that she'd booked it into court for the 9 June and that RBS had until the 2 June to respond to the summons.

[Candice 5]

oic, I'm doing mine online. I thought I'd missed something for a moment lol

 

I did however get a letter from the bar stewards this morning saying they believe their charges to be reasonable and fair and all that jazz. They offered me a lump sum, which I have noted in a question below (all advice gratefully received).

 

I'm a bit confused because my claim is against the bank for 3 previous accounts. 2 of them are with my branch and one was sent away to some special office dealing with accounts in debt (mainly because of all the charges). This letter came from the department dealing with one account and the figures are relating only to that one account and not the other 2, so I think they've really gone a bit screwy with paperwork as my claim is directed at the bank for all 3 accounts. All to my benefit however I must add, but it goes to show that maybe RBoS aren't as organised with dealing with all this as we might be lead to believe (I read here there was a new department setup to take charge of all of this). This department have yet to be in contact it seems, unless they merely pull the strings on the other departments?

 

Anyway, for reference, I thought I'd post the full text of the letter as I seem to be the only one this far down the line with RBoS, so hopefully others will find it handy.

 

I write with reference to the above detailed accounts and in response to your correspondence dated 8 March 2006. Thank you for your patience whilst your concern has been investigated.

 

I understand you are unhappy with the charges debited to your account since 8 March 2000 and you request that they are refunded You have made your request on the basis that you say the charges are penalty charges for breach of contract terms which exceed the actual cost of the breach and therefore they are illegal.

 

Following a review of the transactions on your account since 8 March 2000, I can see that the charges debited to your account in this time total £1,570.00 .

 

The charges debited to your account were in relation to unauthorised borrowing, card misuse, unpaid items and paid referral fees. These are not deemed as penalty charges.

 

The Bank believes that its charges are fair and reasonable and considers that the amounts debited to your account have been applied in accordance with the published tariff. The Bank is satisfied that this tariff complies with all applicable laws and regulations.

 

Whilst your request is noted, the Bank is not prepared to refund the charges debited to your account over the last 6 years. This being said, in an attempt to reach an amicable resolution to your concern, I confirm that the Bank is prepared to consider an offer of a lump sum payment, which can be less that the balance owed, in full and final settlement of your account.

 

You will need to refer to the relevant Branch/Office, which I believe you have, regarding accounts xxxxxxxx and xxxxxxxx as these accounts are not under this Office's control.

 

I note you say that if the Bank does not respond positively to your correspondence dated 8 March 2006 then you will progress a claim and also seek to recover interest and expenses. Please note that the Bank is prepared to defend its position and that it would seek to recover any cost incurred as a result of this.

 

Control of your account has now been returned to the relevant Team within this Office. Please direct any further questions you may have to our Customer Call Centre on 01952 206223. Alternatively, you may address letters for the attention of our Correspondence Team.

 

I ask that, upon receipt of this letter, you contact our Customer Call Centre immediately to discuss repayment of your account.

 

Thank you for taking the time and trouble to bring this matter to the Bank's attention.

 

If you are unhappy with the way in which your concern is being resolved, please refer to the leaflet previously sent out to you explaining the Bank's concern handling procedures. This leaflet outlines the options available to you should you with your concern to receive further considerations.

 

Yours sincerely,

 

Mr A French

Customer Care Team

 

 

A couple of questions: Should I call them, and get some money back still claiming the rest through the courts (and tell the courts they have made an interim payment to me and to reduce the amount owed respectively)? Should I call them and tell them legal action is already in the last stages and if they wish to avoid it they may pay me in full now?

 

Cheers folks

[alanfromderby 2,000]

It is very unlikely that they will agree to make an interim payment - what they will want is for you to agree to a full and final settlement. They are also incorrect in stating that the amounts you are claiming do not fall within the criteria of being unlawful.

 

Their comment about costs is also intended to frighten you - as your claim is below £5,000 and would be heard in the County Court system they would not be able to claim for costs.

 

Keep strong....don't let them deflect you into accepting less than what you are owed.

[alanfromderby 2,000]

Sorry - didn't answer all your questions. I would write back and say that you will only accept the full amount claimed, and that will now include costs and interest since legal action has already commenced due to their failure to settle within the required timescale.

[Candice 5]

Yeah thanks for that matey, it's pretty much what I was thinking.

 

I'm not scared by their threats at all, I know that they can't claim costs as they never contended the jurisdiction of the County Court.

 

I shall write back and let them know the full settlement figure but my main questions now is where to send that letter? My branch has 2 accounts, this department has 1 and the Litigation Officer seems to be the best bet still. Uh, damn bank. So shall I sent it to all 3 offices or just one?

[alanfromderby 2,000]

I would write back to Mr French...give him something to do, rather than just pass the buck all day!! LOL

[Candice 5]

Well, here was my reply

 

 

 

 

Offer of Repayment of Charges

 

 

Dear Mr French,

 

I am writing in response to your recent letter regarding the unlawful penalty charges that have been applied to my 3 accounts held with Royal Bank of Scotland over the last 6 years.

 

In your letter you state that the Bank is prepared to offer a lump sum settlement on the unlawful charges (which can be less that the balance owed) in an attempt to reach an amicable resolution.

 

Unfortunately this offer is wholly unacceptable as there is no reason why I should agree for the Bank to refund only part of the charges that were unlawfully taken from me. As stated in my first and second letters to the Bank, I require full and complete repayment of all unlawful charges.

 

The Bank was given a gracious two week opportunity to pay back the unlawful charges, as stipulated in my initial letter. Despite repeated telephone calls and another warning letter of impending legal action, the Bank has failed to refund the totality of the unlawful charges or, until now, demonstrate any positive desire to resolve the issue. Because of this, as warned several times, legal action was commenced on the deadline stated in the letters and telephone calls.

 

This claim is for the entire amount of unlawful charges and now includes interest on the balance and legal fees. I do not understand why the Bank believes it to be acceptable to offer me a part return of the monies unlawfully taken at this stage and not before I was forced to commence legal action to recover the full amount.

 

Because this action has now already been started (and is nearing the end of the period where the Bank must file a defence with the County Court), the only acceptable settlement figure I am able to entertain from the Bank is the sum equal to my claim, which is currently £2,749.76.

 

Unless the Bank is willing to repay the amount in full before the response deadline set for you by the Courts, then the legal process will commence as you have been advised. In this case, the Bank must either appear in Court in an attempt to defend the unlawful charges, or I shall request a Default Judgement if the Bank does not defend the claim. This would lead to the issuing of a Warrant of Execution, allowing bailiffs in to the branch to seize goods for sale at auction to recover your debt.

 

It appears from your letter that you are unfamiliar with due legal process with regards to these matters. As you must be aware, ignorance of the law is not a defence. The Bank has received all the relevant paperwork explaining the process – I too have received a duplicate copy of this paperwork. In your letter you state that the Bank is prepared to defend its position and that it would seek to recover any costs incurred as a result of this. The Small Claims Process (for monies owed of less than £5,000) on the single-track at the County Court does not permit for such action to recover any costs from the plaintiff.

 

As you state, the Bank is fully prepared to defend its position. I will thus reiterate that if the complete sum of £2,749.76 is not received before the deadline set by the Courts, then the Bank will be given the desired opportunity to attempt to defend the unlawful charges in the Court room.

 

Yours sincerely,

[thegoodsamaritan 51]

nice

[Candice 5]

Cheers

 

So if you work for the RBS, do you know how busy it is with all the reclaimed charges? Being as I seem to be the only one so far ahead, would you agree it's pretty quiet or are people doing it without being involved with this forum? I is a bit confused :-\

[vix2000 35]

Hi Candice

 

Would you mind if I used the basis of your letter above if I need it? I have 2 seperate claims pending for RBS and one is at stage of letter before action, the other at preliminary letter before LBA. Both are for about £1500 so I assume I'll be taken to the final stages. I assume at some point they will make a reduced offer.

[Candice 5]

Absolutely: rape, pillage and burn to your heart's content

 

As not too many people are down the RBS route, it's slightly new to me but so far it's going as predicted and similar to the other banks - I guess they will make you a reduced offer too. Remember it's all about mind games, so keep saying no until you get what you want.

 

The whole thing that's tickled me more that anything is the interest. As my charges started quite a while ago, the interest really has amounted to something quite significant (about 1/3 extra!).

 

I believe that bank charges are probably one of the most tax efficient savings accounts around at the moment

[vix2000 35]

So do ours!!! over £800.00 interest. Ours is for a closed account from 2001 to 2003. If they go to court it'll cost them loads more with the 8%. You're right. There's not much info on RBS but my daughter also has just sent a LBA to them so we can keep the forum informed. Forewarned is forearmed, so to speak!!!!!

[thegoodsamaritan 51]

Cheers

 

So if you work for the RBS, do you know how busy it is with all the reclaimed charges? Being as I seem to be the only one so far ahead, would you agree it's pretty quiet or are people doing it without being involved with this forum? I is a bit confused :-\

 

I've yet to see a single (court threat) claim in my branch as yet.

A few weeks ago we were told what to do if we received letters from custs about them "taking court action to recover illegal penalty charges" - ie we were to forward the letter to the relevant department - pronto! They did seem quite concerned about it right enough.

 

My branch is fairly small and doesn't get a lot of charges to be honest but it may be different in a big city branch. All I know is that I've never heard of a single bank customer (on this site or elsewhere) who's gone all the way and not won. Go for it you've absolutely nothing 2 lose and everything to gain!

[Candice 5]

Thanks for the info and support matey

[Candice 5]

Uuuh how long is it taking them to reply to my letters

Call me an impatient *****r but I want my money!

[Candice 5]

Right this is getting totally ridiculous now. RBS are like a flock of seagulls! Cue the Benny Hill music and I shall explain:

 

I had 3 accounts with RBS, two of them at my branch and one at a special department because I owed them money.

 

I write all my letters to my branch demanding money back from all 3 accounts, my LBA and my claim form were sent there. The branch told me they had passed it on to the Credit Management Services department.

 

CMS told me that they could only deal with the one account and I keep getting letters from Mr A French of said department. Eventually he offered me about half my money - £1,150. I told him to kiss my clacker and pay me the full amount or I had every intention of going to the court.

 

I keep getting random response letters saying they are dealing with my request, even when I don't write letters to them. These letters are obviously in reponse to something because for every letter I send to this department, I get 3 acknowledgements :-|

 

As I said, a flock of seagulls.

 

But today it really turned slapstick when I got a letter from "RBS Group Litigation" about my legal claim. THEY HAVE LOST THE CLAIM FORM! They are asking if I could "therefore kindly send me a copy of your Claim Form so that I can arrange for your claim to be properly dealt with".

 

HELLO?? They have 3 working days left now to respond to the court deadline.

 

Is this some bizarre diversionary tactic or has someone actually made a huge cock up at the eleventh hour? Should I ring them and inform them of this? I don't care about writing amusing letters highlighting their stupidity at the moment, I really just want my stolen money back now.

 

I've posted several time on this forum saying what a circus this is turning in to. Maybe because it was for 3 accounts it just got them all confused or are they trying every method in the book to stall me? I just dunno. I suppose it can't hurt to call them to remind them they have 3 working days left to reply to the courts, whether they lost the claim form or not? It might prompt them to pay me before I request a default judgement.

 

W*nkers (no offence intended Good Samaritan, you're cool )

[surreyscouse 26]

don't call them, they could get a copy from the court if they wanted.

 

Hold on, don't enough of our letters get "not received" or "lost in the post" !

 

I wouldn't help them out at all !

[Candice 5]

It *seems* that actually they are having a real internal problem with all this paperwork at the moment, I do think they might have actually lost it. There's no time to get another one from the court, they have like 3 days left to respond to the claim now. They already issues an acknowledgement of service.

[Candice 5]

OK you guys, I really need your help now. It looks like I may actually be going to court to fight this. I am the only one this far down the line with RBS and their court defence deadline almost expired, they made it save a few days.

 

The previous correspondence I had from them just yesterday seems quite random as they have just written to me again with their defence to my claim so they definitely haven't lost it. I have had no further contact with them since yesterday regarding that matter, as I posted above.

 

Firstly, my claim is against RBS but I have received a letter from Group Litigation of me vs. NatWest. I know that RBS own NatWest but I have not been a customer of NatWest, I am unsure why their letter says this as my claim was filed against RBS with my branches details. The claim number is the same.

 

The covering letter reads:

--- 8

Dear me,

 

Please find enclosed a copy of the Defendant's Defence as filed at Court today.

 

Please also find enclosed a Request for Further Information dated 20 April 2006 which we require your response to by 4 May 2006.

 

Yours sincerely,

Kay Stanbridge (Details added to contact section)

--- 8

 

This letter was sent from the bank. In the envelope were two other documents from the bank, copies of what they have apparently submitted to the court. I have no proof these have actually been sent to the court so would think I might want to check with them first before replying in case I say something that might damage my claim?

 

The first document is their defence and the second is a request for further information ("Request for further information of the claim form pursuant to CPR part 18").

 

To refresh your memory and save you digging around, here is what I put on my claim form on moneyclaim.gov.uk:

--- 8

The claimant held 3 bank accounts (xxx, xxx and xxx) with the defendant, open between 8/3/2000 - 8/3/2006. During this time the defendant made various deductions in respect of: 'referral charge', 'unpaid item' and 'card misuse' (levied if a direct debit, standing order or cheque was returned unpaid, or because the specified overdraft limit had been exceeded).

 

If the defendant establishes the contract between the claimant and the defendant did contain terms purporting to entitle the defendant to levy these charges, the claimant will contend they are unenforceable at common law, being penalty clauses rather than liquidated damages clauses.

 

The claimant claims the total amount unlawfully charged during this period, of £2011. The claimant further claims interest pursuant to s69 of the County Courts Act 1984 at the rate of 8% p/a, of £618.76.

--- 8

 

 

Here are the contents of the document entitled "Defence":

--- 8

1. It is admitted that the Claimant holds Accounts numbered xxx, xxx and xxx with the Defendant (the "Accounts").

 

2. The Accounts are governed by written contracts (the "Contracts") between the Claimant and the Defendant.

 

3. It is admitted and averred that the Defendant applied various charges to the Accounts from May 2000 to date. (Note that my claim had March 2000, not May 2000)

 

4. The charges referred to at paragraphs 3 above were applied in accordance with the terms of the Contracts.

 

5. It is denied that any terms of the Contracts are unenforceable penalty clauses. The Defendant reserves the right to plead further on this issue following receipt of the Claimant's response to the Defendant's Request for Further Information.

 

6. It is denied that the Claimant is entitled to the relief claimed or to any relief.

 

7. Save as is expressly admitted above, each allegation contained in the Particulars of Claim is denied.

--- 8

 

I would like to point out that RBS have already offered me £1,500.

 

Here are the contents of the document requesting further information:

--- 8

This Request for Further Information is made by the Defendant to the Claimant on 20 April 2006 pursuant to Part 18 of the Civil Procedure Rules. The Defendant requests that the Claimant provide the information requested herein on or before 4 May 2006.

 

Of:

 

"If the defendant is able to establish the contract between the claimant and the defendant did contain terms purporting to entitle the defendant to levy these charges..."

 

Request:

 

1. Please state whether it is the Claimant's case that the contracts contained no such terms.

 

Of:

 

"the claimant will contend they are unenforceable at common law, being penalty clauses rather than liquidated damages clauses"

 

2. Please identify with precision the contractual terms that the Claimant alleges to be "penalty clauses rather than liquidated damages clauses."

 

3. Please specify all of the facts relied on by the Claimant in support of this contention.

--- 8

 

So, what to do? They have submitted their defence - do they really want to go to court? As I said, nobody is this far down the road with RBS as I am. And what is up with that NatWest thing??

 

As usual, all thoughts, comments, suggestions (and support) are most gratefully received right about now

[thegoodsamaritan 51]

Looks like they're just being deliberately difficult, and are trying to throw you off by saying its you v nat west.

 

I'm not big on the whole legal thing so afraid but'll give you my ideas. Write them a letter back correcting them that the case is yourself v RBS, not NAT West as they stated. Also address their three requests for information. (By the way I think they're right on the May 2006 bit as this is 6 years back from the earliest date the court case will go ahead.) Now for their requests for information:

 

"1. Please state whether it is the Claimant's case that the contracts contained no such terms."

It is the claimants case that the charges laid out in the original contract are unlawful penalty charges and cannot be legally enforced.

 

"2. Please identify with precision the contractual terms that the Claimant alleges to be "penalty clauses rather than liquidated damages clauses.""

This sounds like they're asking you to show them which terms in the original contract (ie the small print on the original application form for the account) are for penalty charges. Did you do a DPA request? If so they should have sent you a copy of the original application form. If not ask in branch for a copy of the terms and conditions / charges leaflet for current accounts.

 

"3. Please specify all of the facts relied on by the Claimant in support of this contention."

I think what they're asking here is all the evidence for your case (ie bank charges are penalties):

-which laws you are using as support for the argumnet

-statements by banks that show that the charges are in fact penalties.

 

This is quite useful http://www.govanlc.com/offset.htm if you've not been there already.

Note in particular relation to your case: Sir Fred Goodwin (RBS CEO) told us that for RBS "The costs are going to pay for all the people we have who pursue debt, collect debt, speak to customers and chase payments..." Sounds like he just admitted that they are penalty charges after all.

 

 

Remember even if RBS do turn up at court you just need to show the judge on the balance of probability that you are correct. All the best

[Candice 5]

Hey folks,

 

I think that I got a bit unnecessarily worried about the letter received from the solicitors, I'd actually love to go to court and win my case (OK, I admit, I'd get quite a kick out of it ) so sorry for sounding panicked in my last post.

 

Thank for your reply thegoodsamaritan, very helpful. However, with regards to the request for further information under Part 18 of the Civil Procedure Rules, it is my interpretation that only a court may make this request (or at least make it compulsory). What's the legal stance on this?

 

Cheers folks

[Candice 5]

[NB, I have posted this in my specific thread in RBS, but this seems to be of general interest to all as it might be a new stalling tactic by the banks so worth discussing here too IMHO)

 

My bank have filed a defence with the court denying they owe me anything and have sent a "Request for Further Information of the Claim Form Pursuant to Civil Procedure Rules Part 18".

 

In this request, they have asked for details of what my defence is, the exact terms in my original contract when I opened the account which permits them to levy charges and all the facts I can use to support my case.

 

It seems quite a stupid and piddly thing for them to request as it seems like the sort of thing I would have to show a judge and not them, and after looking in to the CPR, I'm unsure whether only the court can make this request, or whether only the court can make the request compulsory (but the defendant is free to request it and I am free to ignore it if it's not ordered by the court).

 

I don't know if this is a new type of delaying tactic or if there's something else fishy going on, so thoughts on this would be gratefully received. I'm not totally au fait with the CPR so if anyone with legal knowledge greater than my own would be so kind as to hypothesise what's they could be up to, that'd be quite useful.

 

Kindest thanks in advance

[lee6370 43]

It seems more and more banks are putting in a defence.

 

Most of it's rubbish, but it would be good if we could put together a list of all points banks are using in their defence and the best way to tackle them.

[dw190 277]

[NB, I have posted this in my specific thread in RBS, but this seems to be of general interest to all as it might be a new stalling tactic by the banks so worth discussing here too IMHO)

 

My bank have filed a defence with the court denying they owe me anything and have sent a "Request for Further Information of the Claim Form Pursuant to Civil Procedure Rules Part 18".

 

In this request, they have asked for details of what my defence is, the exact terms in my original contract when I opened the account which permits them to levy charges and all the facts I can use to support my case.

 

It seems quite a stupid and piddly thing for them to request as it seems like the sort of thing I would have to show a judge and not them, and after looking in to the CPR, I'm unsure whether only the court can make this request, or whether only the court can make the request compulsory (but the defendant is free to request it and I am free to ignore it if it's not ordered by the court).

 

I don't know if this is a new type of delaying tactic or if there's something else fishy going on, so thoughts on this would be gratefully received. I'm not totally au fait with the CPR so if anyone with legal knowledge greater than my own would be so kind as to hypothesise what's they could be up to, that'd be quite useful.

 

Kindest thanks in advance

 

It is quite commom for defendants to make Request for Further Information under CPR Part 18.

 

If you fail to answer or ignore the request it will certainly go against you.

 

The way the Civil Courts work are that both sides go into court having disclosed all documentation they intend to rely on. You cannot ambush on the day.

 

I am suprised that they are asking for :

 

they have asked for details of what my defence is, the exact terms in my original contract when I opened the account which permits them to levy charges and all the facts I can use to support my case.

 

You should answer their request to the best of your knowledge. If in doubt about anything the answer would be unknown or cannot remember.

 

CPR Part 18 work both ways. You could request further information from them in relation to any contract.

 

When you answer you make sure that the Claimant, Defendant, Court and Court Case Number are on the front page of the document and it clearly states

 

Replies to the Defendants Part 18 Request for Further Information.

 

The CPR rules can be found here.

http://www.dca.gov.uk/civil/procrules_fin/menus/rules.htm