parking appeal changed by council

[knockfree]

I appealed a penealty charge notice on the grounds that my car had stalled(100% true)The time between stalling and moving away was 76 seconds,this was caught on the council camera.The council refused my appeal on the grounds that I had stated that I had broken down and wanted proof from a garage ie. receipts, vat invoices etc. for parts and labour.Now the council know full well that I never said that I was broken down, and have the video footage of me stalling and moving off to prove this,so why would the council change my appeal.Is it because they could not rebut my appeal and decided to change it to one which they could refuse.I have kept all the original appeal documents and the video footage.

Can anyone help?

[Jamberson]

It is because they select their reply from a menu of pre-written letters and whichever idiot read your appeal sent you that one - probably it was the closest they could find. Of course it is inappropriate.

 

From the sound of it, your appeal has not been refused - it is still open, pending your evidence. I suggest a polite reply pointing out that their reply is not to the point and reitterating that you merely stalled the engine. Tell them the only available evidence is the video footage and please would they review it to see that your original appeal was truthful.

 

I think that's the best you can do at the moment.

[knockfree]

Thank you for your prompt reply.I have'nt told the full story.I appealed it to the the adjudicator and lost.The adjudicator said that stalling and breaking down were the same thing,and he said this with a straight face!He also said that I was parked against the kerb,I pointed out to him that I had a slight advantage over him on this issue as measuring things was my lifes work.I told him that my wheel was at least 8 or 9 inches from the kerb, and that my other wheel was over the white line in the middle of the road.This could be clearly seen on the video.The lesson to be learned from this is not to contradict an adjudicator keep your mouth shut and tug your forelock at all times. At the same time one can not agree with something that is blatantly not true.I have asked the council several times foe an explanation as to why they changed my appeal,and so far they have only replied with the standard letter,but no answer.I have now asked through the freedom of information act,who and why my appeal was changed and who authorized it.I hope this prises some information from them,but I am not holding my breath.

[Jamberson]

If you've been to adjudication and lost, then sorry to say you have reached the end of the line. There is no avenue of appeal beyond that. Sounds like you've not been dealt with very fairly, but I don't see what you can do now.

 

Incidentally the freedom of information act doesn't cover that kind of info. It covers things like how much the council spends etc. Data relating to your personal case (and right to see it) is covered by the data protection act, so they may refuse the FOI request - if they do, you'd need to cite the dada protection act instead, but hopefully this time someone sensible will deal with your letter. (You can hope!!)

[knockfree]

I have'nt given up, and if I have to go to a court of law I will.I simply can not allow anyone to change my words and get away with it.It's as simple as that.The way I look at it is this.If I tried that it would be looked at as attempted fraud or getting money under false pretences.There is the fact that they did'nt adress my initial appeal,but something completely different. What I really need from readers is ideas on how to make this as public as possible ie newspapers etc.

[Michael Browne]

I have'nt given up, and if I have to go to a court of law I will..

Good luck with that. I hope you have deep pockets.

[Aretnap]

I have'nt given up, and if I have to go to a court of law I will.

If you've been to adjudication and lost then your options are very limited. You can ask PATAS or the TPT (whichever it was) to review the adjudicator's decision, which they will do in limited circumstances - see here

 

http://www.patas.gov.uk/tmaadjudicators/tmayourquestions.htm#q12

 

Or you can try judicial review in the High Court if you think the adjudicator was wrong on a point of law, but make sure you have a few thousand pounds to spare in the event that you lose.

 

Those are your only two ways forward from here, other than just trying to badger the council and hoping that they drop it (good luck with that). Otherwise if you don't pay now bailiffs will eventually be sent round to seize your possessions, sell them at a fraction of their real value to pay the PCN, and add their own extortionate fees on top.

 

Sorry. I don't much like it either, but that's how it is.

[knockfree]

I have paid the charge, but that does not mean that I can not find out the real truth of why this was done and by whom.If I find out that the decision was made just because the council could not rebut my original appeal,then I will go to town on them and give them some free publicity.I don't suppose that will worry them unduly,but then again they don't like to be scrutinised and in the public gaze.I'm visious are'nt I?.It's the arrogance of council staff to think that they don't have to answer to anyone that gets me.I have very good quality free legal advice,and that is why I am on a mission.

[Michael Browne]

The belief that one's own view of reality is the only reality is the most dangerous of all delusions.

[Jamberson]

Well, when they asked you for evidence, what sort of response did you give?

[green_and_mean]

rather than all this he said she said twaddle why not post some facts we don't even know what the PCN was for? The Council have not changed your appeal since you gave no grounds for appealling as far as I can see, stopping for reasons beyond the drivers control is a valid reason hence their request. If you stalled because you cannot drive properly then its not beyond your control, if the vehicle was faulty it is beyond your control which is why they asked for evidence of the car being faulty.

[knockfree]

My appeal was changed to something I never said.I think it is perfectly reasonable and logical to ask why.If it is legal and in order why be so defensive?. I am not asking for state secrets,just a simple line of explanation would do.It is like saying to a child who asks something you cannot explain and saying"because I said so".Not good enough.

[stu007]

Hi

 

These may be of interest to you since they say you were caught on cctv:

[green_and_mean]

My appeal was changed to something I never said.I think it is perfectly reasonable and logical to ask why.If it is legal and in order why be so defensive?. I am not asking for state secrets,just a simple line of explanation would do.It is like saying to a child who asks something you cannot explain and saying"because I said so".Not good enough.

 

Are you saying the Council broke into the PATAS offices and altered your appeal like something from James Bond because that is the only way they can change your appeal? You send your appeal to PATAS and they read it and come to a verdict how can the Council change what you said?

[knockfree]

I think you had better read the threads before you comment g+m.I think you are confused.

[crem]

If you stalled because you cannot drive properly then its not beyond your control,

 

Really? Stalling a car has become a drivers error now that warrants a penalty! It is not unusal for any level of driver to accidently stall a car on a given occasion and even within the DSA driving test a single "random" stall may not even be recorded as a "fault" unless there were some other element involved (such as stalling in a traffic light junction which brings other risk factors into the situation).

[green_and_mean]

Really? Stalling a car has become a drivers error now that warrants a penalty! It is not unusal for any level of driver to accidently stall a car on a given occasion and even within the DSA driving test a single "random" stall may not even be recorded as a "fault" unless there were some other element involved (such as stalling in a traffic light junction which brings other risk factors into the situation).

 

Which is why I said we need more details rather than this ridiculous 'the council changed my appeal' rubbish. Parking regulations have nothing to do with the content of a driving test, you can even speed if its not excessive and still pass that doesn't make speeding legal. If you stall in a box junction for example how is that beyond the drivers control if the car is in perfect running order?

 

As regards to not reading the previous posts I can assure you I have and it still makes no difference a Council cannot change your appeal to PATAS, the appeal goes direct to PATAS and the Council only see a copy. Even if they misquoted your original challenge in their evidence the adjudicator would see your appeal to them stating you had stalled and realise the Councils error.

[knockfree]

I can assure you have not read my original post.

[Michael Browne]

Why not , as suggested, post up:

Your appeal to PATAS

Councils submission to PATAS

The adjudicators decision.

[knockfree]

Thank you M B I was just about to do that.Thank you to eveyone who contributed and read my little rant.