@santanderbankgb Santander Consumer Finance Issued Termination After Defective Default Notice - car finance

[BelstarBomb]

Good morning all!

 

I'll give some background information first of all.

 

We have a loan with SCF for our car.

 

When the agreement was first set up SCF messed up the payment dates

- taking it earlier than agreed and we cancelled the DD and set up a SO after discussing this with SCF so that we were in control.

 

We had asked for a change in payment date and the person we spoke to at the time, advised that if we set the SO up for say the 26th of each month,

even though the agreement stated the 21st of each month that would be fine.

That had gone fine with no charges etc and no problems.

 

In June of last year, we went abroad for 6 months with my husband as he had a job secondment.

We set up transfers to our 'bills' account to pay for bills such as the car loan but the first transfer was actioned late by us

and it did not hit our bills account in time to pay that months car loan and some other bills.

 

In January upon our return, we received the letters from SCF about the missing payment as well as statements listing the charges.

 

We immediately wrote to them explaining what had happened and advising them that we would obviously pay the missing payment

but could they explain why there had been charges of £25 levied one month and 2 x £25 another.

From our calculation we needed to pay the missing payment + £200 charges, they were asking for missing payment + £300.

 

To date they have not responded to that letter.

 

In the meantime, the January SO did not go as bill payment via debit card had been processed first.

 

We bank with cahoot and they now stop sending email reminders that a DD or SO has not been paid

and their letters don't specify the erceiver so we didn't pick up on January's missed payment until Friday when we received a default notice.

 

The default notice was dated 24th February, was sent TNT Post, arrived on 4th March and gives us until £15th March to pay the best part of £1500.

Our contractual monthly payment is £330.

 

February's SO went through fine on 26th as per our original agreement but is obviously not included in the DN as they 'crossed' in the post.

 

We immediately wrote to SCF pointing out that we had not received a response to our letter sent in January

querying the charges and added that we felt the DN was defective as the method of sending has not allowed us the 14 days to remedy the default,

but most importantly it is defective because the amounts are incorrect as it includes incorrect and excessive charges.

We headed it up 'customer complaint', sent it RM SD and gave them 7 days from Monday to respond to us.

 

Is there anything else that I can do here guys over and above what I have already done.

We can afford to pay the outstanding two payments but I do not want to do that if they continue with the default

and most certainly do not want to pay charges that we believe we have been overcharged on.

 

As I believe the DN is including the arrears charges (from the amounts quoted, I cannot believe it can be for anything else)

even if we do pay the outstanding two payments, we will still not be complying to the DN.

 

Don't know if it means anything but the wording on the breach stated that we have missed regular contractual payment, it doesn't state anything that the amount includes the charges.

 

Any suggestions?

 

Cheers,

 

Bel

[BankFodder]

Start off by informing yourself.

 

Read the judgment linked here and pay attention to the judges comments about default notices. It is different to your case as yours is inaccurate but it will he,p to put you in the picture

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/content.php?707-MBNA-and-Link-Financial-tortured-their-customer!

 

Read this article and follow the links and read those as well:- http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/content.php?700-Hot-news-for-anyone-who-has-suffered-mortgage-arrears-charges-irresponsible-lending-or-other-unfair-lender-conduct

special attention to the FSA final notices on arrears and also TCF

 

Start preparing to sue for your charges and unfair treatment.

 

I can tell you that one of our users has been suing Santander for mortgage charges and also in relation to unfair treatment and we have a judgment. We have sued for restitutionary damages and one or two other things and there will be a hearing on 21st June.

Santander have even tried to settle the claim by paying all the charges and interest and we have knocked them back

[BelstarBomb]

Thanks BF,

 

I had already read both posts before sending our letter on Friday.

 

Would you suggest that we pay the outstanding payments or wait to hear back from them re the charges?

 

Chers,

 

Bel

[BankFodder]

If you have the money, then I would suggest that you pay everything and then go in and get it back. However, don't lose the anger which you will need to drive you through the process.

 

If you don't mind me saying, but I think that you need to be a bit cleverer organising your payments. Although their charges are unfair and their treatment of you is unfair, these kinds of crossed payment problems etc etc happen far too often and people bring the problems on themselves. Although Santander are wrong for their treatment of you, it is all so much hassle having to fight these people all the time - and believe me, they don't care about you and they have the resources not to care.

 

The problem with SO's is that although you are in control, you also then have the responsibility. It is much nicer to be able to pass the buck to the bank. If they foul up the DD then you can attack them hard for repayment of every penny.

 

Write out a detailed chronology of everything that has happened. Establish your position that as they messed up the DD at the outset, in this way they became responsible for the entire chain of events as you lost confidence in them to do their job.

 

Pay all arrears and keep paying the instalments - even if they say that they refuse to accept them. They are not allowed to refuse. How about paying the instalment a few days early each time to give you a margin.

 

Writing to them has very little effect. They are either unable to read or incapable of appreciating the conent of any letter - I haven't figured out which.

 

The only thing which will get their attention is court papers.

 

Pay the money - in a letter make it clear that it is under protest.

 

Then 7 day LBA

then send them the Good News

[BelstarBomb]

Hi All,

 

Am ripping my hair out with Santander Consumer Finance.

 

We are behind on our car loan with them and they keep on charging two lots of default fees each month.

They issued a default notice which was dated 29th March with a comply date of 18th April.

The letter arrived at our property on 11th April and as we were talking to the postman at the time, we got him to sign it to say, that it was delivered on that day.

 

We immediately wrote to SCF advising them of this and that we believed the DN to be defective for the following reasons.

 

1. We didn't have a full 14 working days with which to comply

2. Because they had overcharged us fees (which they had done before and refunded),

the amount on the default notice was incorrect because it comprises of unlawful charges, incorrect charges and interest.

 

The letter was headed up - Customer Complaint and was received at their offices on 17th April.

 

Today a termination notice has arrived dated 20th April saying hand the car back or they will go to court.

 

How exactly do you suggest that we move on with this especially as there was no acknowledgement to our letter of complaint.

 

many thanks,

 

Bel

[dx100uk]

get reclaiming those PENALTY fees

 

dx

[dx100uk]

what type of agreement is this?

 

how far in are you?

 

dx

[BelstarBomb]

Hi DX,

 

We have three months left on a 3 year agreement and had £xxx to pay at the end of it to either keep the car, hand it back or trade it in for something else.

 

We believe that they have ballsed up on so many fronts but just want something to stop them in their tracks now without any further action so that we can at least try to get the money together to pay it off in three months time.

 

In addition, the date of service etc did not allow for the bank holiday weekend so as TNT mail is classed as 2nd class post,

date of service from 29th march should have been 5th April??

 

Fourteen calender days not including the bank holiday should have taken the date to 19th April, not 18th.

Tight I know but still not the 14 days by law.

Then add to the equation I got the postman to sign the envelope on the 11th doe that not carry some weight.

 

Also I thought there were standards that they had to adhere to if there was a customer complaint outstanding as our letter dated 17th clearly stated that it was a customer complaint.

 

What would you do DX??

 

bel

[dx100uk]

santy are far too big to even have the staff to read complaints it seens.

 

you are however correct with the DN

TNT or UK mail IS 2nd class, it takes 5 days+ to get into the royal mail system

and a further 4 days in royal mail at best.

 

so the DN is defective on that and that the bal inc's PENALTY charges.

 

what does the agreement title say

is a personal loan or HP

 

but eitherway, they cant take the car without a COURT order me thinks.

 

i would get reclaiming ALL the PENALTY fees

 

have you got all the statements?

 

dx

 

 

dx

[BelstarBomb]

It was termed as Lease Purchase but the DN says

 

The Agreement:- Conditional sale Agreement

Date of notice 29th March 2012

Action required: to pay the arrears of £xxx.xx before 18/4/2012 so even their notice doesn't allow for 14 days!

 

I will write to them claiming back the fees and interest and again remind them that the DN is defective and therefore can't/shouldn't be terminated and see what happens or do you suggest that we do anything else??

 

Thank you DX,

 

bel

[dx100uk]

i'd hit them with a soc [spreadsheet]

are they charging interest on the penalty charges on the statements?

 

dx

[BelstarBomb]

In all my time on the CAG I have never heard of a soc!!!

 

What exactly is that??

 

Also, I have no idea for sure if they are charging interest on the penalty charges - it doesn't say that they are or aren't but from my quick calculations it would appear that they are.

 

Bel

[dx100uk]

well if they are listed on the statements i bet they are

 

have you the statements?

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?330996-Latest-Spreadsheets-PPI-Claims-and-Charges-Claims-Dec-2011

 

dx

[BelstarBomb]

Yes we have statements but the information is very basic and to be honest, not very clear.

 

You can tell how long it has been since I have had to do this but I think I will also send off something whose name escapes me - where they supply me with absolutely everything that they have on file, payments, communications, the original agreement etc - what's it called again??

 

That should allow me to complete the compound interest spreadsheet in full and correctly.

 

Good course of attack?

 

Bel

[dx100uk]

sar ......i was wondering that

 

dx

[BelstarBomb]

Ok, now things have got interesting.

 

We received a termination notice yet no response to my customer complaint sent to them within the time-scale of the default notice.

 

Not long after, we received a phone call from Clear Style Finance asking for payment on behalf of Santander or for us to voluntarily return the car to them.

 

We refused both requests citing the fact that 1. we have never had a response from our official complaint and 2, the default was was defective.

 

They said that Santander had not received the letter to which I then faxed through the letter with the timed and dated delivery stamp.

 

Clear Style called back today to advise that Santander have disputed our statement that the default notice is defective as they gave a clear 21 days and if the post delayed it, it isn't' their fault. Further, this has been tested in court and has always found in their favour so they have no worries.

 

I asked for this to be confirmed to me in writing even though it sounded as they he was reading verbatim from an email.

 

Santander have offered to reduce the fees by half but want the outstanding arrears paid off. Clear Style then advised that if we did this, the account would be passed back to Santander to continue with the contractual payments under the agreement. Should we get into difficult again, then Santander would have the right to re-terminate the agreement and start the legal process again.

 

I asked how could they re-terminate something that has already been terminated for him to reply 'Apparently Santander allow this'

 

At the beginning of the conversation he made a point of stating the conversation was being recorded. I asked after all of the above was it still being recorded, to which he responded yes it is.

 

So I am not going loopy can someone please answer the following for me

 

1. If a DN dated 29th March is sent by TNT post, with a bank holiday on Monday 9th April, what is the remedy by date IYHO?

2. Do the courts allow OC's any wiggle room on defective DN's or are rules, the rules?

3. Can terminated agreements be re-terminated or is Clear Style, clearly talking out of their bottoms?

4. As I had proof that Santander had received my official complaint before the end of the remedy period of the DN, should the agreement have been terminated and should they have continued with the existing DN without first concluding my complaint.

5. As they haven't officially responded or completed my customer complaint, can they legally allow Clear Style to continue to chase us for payment

6. What are your thoughts on the above?

 

Cheers,

 

Bel

[BelstarBomb]

Hi Again,

 

I think that SCF have dropped a big one.

 

received a statement this morning that clearly shows that the later payment charges are included in the arrears amount. They also show that in a number of months, that they charged multiple late payment charges in one month even though there was only one contractual payment due.

 

As I see it, these are the facts of the situation

 

1. The original DN was defective due to the date of service and the incorrect amounts on it

2. They terminated the agreement even though they had not responded to our customer complaint which they have subsequently acknowledged receiving

3. They have never directly responded to my customer complaint re the incorrect late payment charges and defective DN

4. They then sent a letter asking for the arrears only after the TN

5. They have now sent another statement after acknowledging receipt of my complaint stating they have overcharged me, showing that they are still overcharging me

 

We have yet to receive the letter from them as per the conversation with the DC - unless what we received in the post today was it! - but we intent to write on Monday with a SAR.

 

As legal action has also been threatened, I would also like to send a CPR request. Knowing that there are many different types, in this situation, what would you suggest is the best one to send?

 

My feeling is, is that having terminated on the back of a defective DN, I believe that they have no right to ask for the balance owing on the car, only the outstanding arrears up to the termination.

 

Based on what I have put here, would you agree with that assumption?

 

If so, what exactly should my course of action be to back that up?

 

Many thanks,

 

Bel

[BelstarBomb]

Hi,

 

have just received a letter from SCF confirming the conversation with Credit Style.

 

It states that if we clear the arrears as a gesture of goodwill, they will write off half the late payment fees and allow the agreement to continue.

 

Am I missing something here or have SCF realised that they have messed up?

 

What are my rights if I agree to this bearing in mind they have already terminated on the back of what I think is a defective DN?

 

What are my rights if I don't agree to this?

 

Thanks,

 

Bel

[dx100uk]

hehe

offering a less that 50% discount on THEIR unlawful PENALTY charges!!

 

no way ....remove them ALL and the interest they have caused you!

 

did you do an SOC?

 

dx

[BelstarBomb]

Not yet, we were about to send it and then got into the conversation with Credit Style and thought we would wait until SCF finally wrote to us.

 

The letter doesn't even acknowledge our complaint of the defective DN or the incorrect charges that their statement clearly shows they have levied or the fact thay he said to Credit Safe that our argument has no basis

 

Taking my posts of the 8th and 12th into consideration, what would your next steps be DX?

 

Thanks,

 

Bel

[dx100uk]

do an soc

fire that back with a refusal of the 'offer'

 

dx

[citizenB]

Date of Default Notice 29th March - sent by TNT which is classified as a 2nd class mail service and only guarantees to get the item to the Royal Mail for final mile delivery

 

Thursday , 29th March - date of default

Friday, 30th March - Day 1

Saturday, 31st March - discounted - not working day

Sunday, 01 April - discounted - not working day

Monday, 02 April - Day 2

Tuesday, 03 April - Day 3

Wednesday, 05 April - Day 4 - Delivery

 

You can only count the Bank Holiday Monday if it falls within the posting allowance

 

So the remedy date should be 18 April

 

However, if you can actually prove that you did not receive the DN until the 9th, then that might be taken into consideration.

 

If the DN is defective on Date - there is no wiggle room - see Harrison v Link and Amex v Brandon

 

HTH

[citizenB]

Hi Again,

 

I think that SCF have dropped a big one.

 

received a statement this morning that clearly shows that the later payment charges are included in the arrears amount. They also show that in a number of months, that they charged multiple late payment charges in one month even though there was only one contractual payment due.

 

As I see it, these are the facts of the situation

 

1. The original DN was defective due to the date of service and the incorrect amounts on it

2. They terminated the agreement even though they had not responded to our customer complaint which they have subsequently acknowledged receiving

3. They have never directly responded to my customer complaint re the incorrect late payment charges and defective DN

4. They then sent a letter asking for the arrears only after the TN

5. They have now sent another statement after acknowledging receipt of my complaint stating they have overcharged me, showing that they are still overcharging me

 

We have yet to receive the letter from them as per the conversation with the DC - unless what we received in the post today was it! - but we intent to write on Monday with a SAR.

 

As legal action has also been threatened, I would also like to send a CPR request. Knowing that there are many different types, in this situation, what would you suggest is the best one to send?

 

My feeling is, is that having terminated on the back of a defective DN, I believe that they have no right to ask for the balance owing on the car, only the outstanding arrears up to the termination.

 

Based on what I have put here, would you agree with that assumption?

 

If so, what exactly should my course of action be to back that up?

 

Many thanks,

 

Bel

 

If they have not responded to your complaint - then you should now be making a complaint to the Financial Ombudsman - they are obliged to respond to a complaint within 8 weeks

 

Are you saying they terminated the account BEFORE issuing the Default Notice?

 

They can only ask for genuine arrears within a default notice - so if there are default charges then that makes the DN incorrect.

 

TBH, I am not really knowledgeable about termination and how that factors into your situation.

 

I do believe that the DCA is talking a load of Bull .. Just because Santander say that something can be done - does not mean that it actually can!

 

You really need to send a Subject Access request to both Santander AND the DCA, because you want a transcript and a copy of that recording.

[BelstarBomb]

Ok, that's one down!

 

My next point in my letter of complaint to them was that the figures stated in the DN were incorrect as they included late payment fees that shouldn't have been levied (they added 3 in one calender month for example).

 

They have subsequently sent a statement that shows that they are still calculating the outstanding amount with these fees. Even though they have broken the fees and the payments down separately, they have added the money that we have paid and then taken the fees and payments that we missed away from that and called the balance outstanding from the calculation, the arrears.

 

What can I/should I do to confirm that this is correct and if so, does this make the DN defective?

 

Thanks CB,

 

Bel

[citizenB]

Default fees are not genuine arrears so cannot be claimed as arrears -

So if you can prove that they are asking for default fees then the balance is incorrect - and as they can only ask for the genuine arrears it makes the default notice suspect.

 

I dont really know how better to explain that.