unter 18 Lost ticket - return ticket confiscated

[christywhisty]

My 16 yr old son was travelling between Hertford North and Stevenage. He bought a return ticket using his 16-25 railcard which cost £4.20.

When he got to Stevenage he couldn't find his outward ticket, although he did have it to get through the ticket barrier at Hertford North.

 

The ticket inspector at Stevenage said that the return part of the ticket wasn't enough proof that he had bought the ticket and that he could have given the outward part to someone else. He was with his girlfriend who had both parts of her ticket.

 

He was fined £20 although he didn't have the money on him, but they insisted on taking £6.20 the price of a normal single right there and then using his connect card, his account had no money in it that day but they said it wasn't a live system and it would be taken the next day. The price with a 16-25 card is £4.10 single and £4.20 return.

 

Then they took the return ticket, which meant that he had no way of returning home as he did not have the money to buy another single ticket to get home.

 

They also didn't bother to ascertain his age and did not tick the under 18 box on the penalty notice nor include details of parents etc

I have appealed but not sure where we stand.

Edited April 13, 2012 by christywhisty
spelling

[Old-CodJA]

The fare for a person over 16 years, who cannot show a valid ticket at the time of travel is the adult single fare. If a person has already travelled without, or is on the railway and cannot produce a valid ticket when asked, no discount will be given to a railcard holder as per the T&Cs accepted at the time of purchase

 

Whilst I understand that to some people it may seem a bit harsh in some respects, an inspector does not have to accept the 'wrong half' of a two-part return ticket as evidence that a valid ticket is held for the very reason given.

 

Having said that, you should appeal and your son needs to explain exactly what happened.

 

How did your son pay for his original ticket?

[christywhisty]

He paid by cash

 

I am also concerned that they took the return part of the ticket off him, so that he would have had to pay again for that part of the journey, if we had not gone and collected him.

[Old-CodJA]

He paid by cash

 

I am also concerned that they took the return part of the ticket off him, so that he would have had to pay again for that part of the journey, if we had not gone and collected him.

 

It seems a little more information might be needed to offer any more suggestion as it is unusual for a return half that would still be valid to be siezed unless there are factors that have not been disclosed. Perhaps your son can help?

[christywhisty]

From what I can gather my son showed him the return ticket as well as other tickets he had bought that day.

We live in Cheshunt and to get to stevenage he goes to hertford east then walks across town to Hertford North station, so he had a return ticket for that journey as well.

He showed the inspector all 3 tickets, but the inspector kept the return ticket from stevenage to hertford north and handed back the Cheshunt tickets.

I spoke to an inspector at Cheshunt this morning and he said it was standard practice to keep the return ticket and it is illegal to travel with only one part of the ticket., which sounds nonsense to me.

They did say to my son at stevenage that he could have given the outward ticket to someone else, but he was traveling with his girlfriend who had her own full set of tickets from hn to s.

Son says there is no more information, he is upset because he feels he is being accused of fraud, when all he did was lose his ticket. I suspect he didn't pick up his ticket when he put it through the barrier when they were at hertford north.

[SRPO]

I suspect he didn't pick up his ticket when he put it through the barrier when they were at hertford north.

 

Impossible im afraid, the barrier wont open unless you take the ticket back.

[christywhisty]

Well he dropped it somewhere then, he had to go through the barrier to get to the platform.

[Old-CodJA]

I spoke to an inspector at Cheshunt this morning and he said it was standard practice to keep the return ticket and it is illegal to travel with only one part of the ticket., which sounds nonsense to me.

 

The inspector is correct in that, he is referring to the condition which says you cannot use the outward half of a two part return ticket if you cannot also produce the unused return portion of that ticket.

 

SRPO is right too, your son could not inadvertently have left the outward half of the ticket in the gate reader as the gate would not open to allow him access to the train until he took it out.

[christywhisty]

It was just me hypothesing what could have happened to the ticket, my son didn't say that's what happened. He has no idea what he did with the ticket.

[transient]

Also just to add although he was travelling with his girlfriend and she had her tickets what's to say there. Wasn't a 3rd friend who had that portion of the ticket and went through the exit barrier a few moments before

 

Not saying that's the case but that's what the RCI\RPI would be thinking

[christywhisty]

Also just to add although he was travelling with his girlfriend and she had her tickets what's to say there. Wasn't a 3rd friend who had that portion of the ticket and went through the exit barrier a few moments before

 

Not saying that's the case but that's what the RCI\RPI would be thinking

But how would two of them got through the ticket barrier at the start of the journey with just one ticket.

[honeybee13]

But how would two of them got through the ticket barrier at the start of the journey with just one ticket.

 

It seems to happen regularly from what we read on the forum.......

 

HB

[transient]

@ christywhisty ... It is easy to double up and go through the gateline ticket barriers with one ticket

 

Without complicating matters they coould have had the friend get on at a station in between with no gateline barriers and met them on the train or even the station they got the ticket the wheelchair barrier might have been left open due to staff shortagen way too many variables and happens all the time

[christywhisty]

He honestly didn't have anyone else with him other than girlfriend. I was told by the inspector at my station that they may look at the cctv camera.

It's fair enough, he shouldn't have lost his ticket, but I am still annoyed they took a ticket he had paid for from him

Also does anyone if they should have treated him differently as a minor under the age of 18. They did not fill in the penalty form in correctly.

[transient]

I wasn't implying there was anyone 3rd person with him or thinking something was amiss just explaining to you that although he was only with his girlfriend the RCI\RPI would not have assumed that. They take a hard line with everyone regardless

 

I do think it is incorrect the way they dealt with him and also to put him in a precarious position in possibly not being able to get home, that would concern me more and yes they should have filled it in correctly.

 

I would be inclined to email FCC regarding this especially the preventing him getting home. Post back to let us know

[Old-CodJA]

He honestly didn't have anyone else with him other than girlfriend. I was told by the inspector at my station that they may look at the cctv camera.

It's fair enough, he shouldn't have lost his ticket, but I am still annoyed they took a ticket he had paid for from him

Also does anyone if they should have treated him differently as a minor under the age of 18. They did not fill in the penalty form in correctly.

 

An adult in public transport ticketing terms is 'over 16', which is when the adult fare becomes payable at a 16th birthday.

 

All rail tickets remain the property of the company at all times though I am surprised that the inspector felt it necessary to retain the return half if there was no other factor that we are unaware of. I'm sure the inspector will have made a note on the counterfoil copy that goes to the processing office if that is the case.

[christywhisty]

Why do they have an under 18 box then on the penalty fare notice.

[christywhisty]

An update

After letters back and forth to rpss, who finally referred me to first capital connect. I paid my sons penalty fare because i didn't want to incur any more costs.

Fcc admitted that my son was not trying to defraud the company, but basically they have to treat everyone as guilty. Still couldn't really come up with an adequate reason for withholding his return ticket other than to prevent further fraud.

They sent us a voucher for the price of a return ticket.

I involved travelwatch who couldn't get a straight answer either.

[havinastella]

Amazing in the Country that treats even one as innocent until proved guilty, the Railways (that we pay for) can presume everyone as guilty!

 

MADNESS!

[RPI]

Penalty fares are not issued to fare evaders, had the RPI suspected that your son was committing any kind of fraud then a Travel Irregularity Report would have been completed with the facts being reported to FCC prosecutions unit, basically a Penalty Fare is issued to anyone who cannot show a valid ticket and the rules apply to everybody, sometimes people do make genuine mistakes but then thats life. As for having the ticket withdrawn, this is common practice amongst all TOC's, if your son was under 16 then a "Zero fare" ticket may have been issued in order fo him to get home but in these circumstances he was not stranded as he was at a manned station and had you not being able to pick him up then you could have arranged a SILK payment from the station, this is when someone such as yourself rings up a number and pays for a ticket by card the ticket details are then sent to the station where the stranded individual is and the tickets printed and given to the stranded individual then hey presto.

 

SILK actually stands for Stranded Individual Location Known beofore anyone asks.

[christywhisty]

How are we supposed to know about SILK. My son wasn't told about even though they knew he had no more money, they just took his ticket off him.

[RPI]

If he approached a member of staff saying that he was stranded then he would have been adviced of this.

[guinless]

Why is it that in such situations, people always try to find any way possible to blame the TOC. Your son is a big boy now, and needs to take responsibility for his own actions. Nobody else is to blame here.

 

Sorry it's not a helpful post, but these things just annoy me.