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    • Thanks I just had a quick look.  Will study over the w/e My friend does have kids. But it's a really dysfunctional family.  They don't talk.   Many years ago he sold 2 property assets and gave them a lot of money (enough to buy homes w/o loans) .  They've done nothing for him in the last 2 decades. And he altered his will so his new partner gets everything; the kids nothing (more). The 1st form I glanced at - to be deputy - asks for family details.   If I give his kids details I suspect the authorities may say they should get the deputy job instead?  Then  they will steal the money and give nothing to his partner. I can get a copy of the medical assessment  - and get it translated.  If need be.   This has all happened very quickly.  He got sick. And that must have kick-started dementia.   He was fine to hold a detailed conversation 6months ago; now he cant
    • Hi I think the only way around this as he lacks capacity is someone is going to have to apply to be a deputies via the Courts as he has assets here in the UK and a UK Bank Account which will take time and there will possible be Court Fees to make the application. Also if the Lack of Capacity (Dementia) was diagnosed abroad the person applying for deputies will need that diagnosis and it will need to be translated legally for the UK Courts so possibly cost for this as well. Also for reference although you were assisting them before the lack of capacity and had authority to act on there behalf that no longer stands due to there diagnosis of Dementia therefore Lack of Capacity so you no longer have any authority legally to act on there behalf unless the below is actioned or someone has Power of Attorney for that individual (which was setup before the Lack of Capacity) Have a wee look at these links: https://www.gov.uk/become-deputy https://www.lawsociety.org.uk/topics/private-client/mental-capacity-international-aspects#:~:text=You might need to make,act within the foreign jurisdiction https://www.gov.uk/government/organisations/office-of-the-public-guardian I have got to ask with the Dementia diagnoses are you 100% sure the diagnosis states they Lack Capacity as not everyone that gets a Dementia diagnoses may lack capacity initially. Now the Office of the Public Guardian link above you could also consider giving them a call just to give them a brief on this situation and get there advice on what documents etc are needed for deputies to be appointed as the person with Lack of Capacity is abroad.
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PATAS or pay PCN? Any advice?


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PATAS or pay PCN?

Advice please!

 

Hi all,

 

This post feels very complicated but I’ve tried to be as clear as I can.

Please let me know if anything needs clarifying!

 

I received a PCN for being in a bus lane on the Staines Road and made an informal appeal that was rejected.

 

In my informal appeal I told them that I entered the bus lane in error (I was in it for approx. 6 metres and was making a left-hand turn)

and that I did not believe the signage was clear (there is a big white directional board in close proximity to the bus lane sign).

 

I was new to the area and was looking at that and did not see the blue bus lane sign.

 

I should add that the breach took place at 23.58 in December 2011, and the white sign was the one most visible.

 

I told them that I would be out of the country for the next month and asked for a copy of the CCTV footage.

I also asked them to tell me at what point along the Staines Road I had breached the bus lane, as the PCN did not give me any details.

They rejected by informal appeal, did not acknowledge the fact that I would be away and did not send a copy of the CCTV footage.

 

They gave me 14 days to send the reduced fine payment of £65 but this ran out before I came back!

 

As a result, they forced me into making a formal appeal.

 

I sent my formal appeal along with the points I have raised, and a copy of my airline ticket, which proved that I was out of the country.

I received a rejection of representation but they gave me another opportunity to pay the reduced fine within 21 days or take it to PATAS and risk paying £130.

 

I have until 19/04 to take advantage of the reduced fine.

 

Now, I don’t know whether they’ve done this as a goodwill gesture or because I may have a case and they think ‘better to get £65 than nothing at all.

 

’ They also finally sent a copy of the CCTV footage, which shows I was in the bus lane for 2-3 seconds!

In the rejection letter they state that ‘the distance traveled, the length of time in a bus lane or the fact that no buses were using the bus lane

at this time does not warrant a cancellation for this type of contravention.

 

The correct course of action would have been to stay in your lane and then turn left or right at the traffic lane and not enter the bus lane…

also there is no statutory requirement for signage indicating CCTV enforcement’.

Is this true?

 

The first camera sign appears along way before the point of contravention, and the post that holds the CCTV camera has no information about it and I thought it should state details.

 

I now have a dilemma:

do I pay the reduced fine or take it all the way to PATAS?

 

I have read that the rule of de minimis can be applied because I was not in the bus lane for a long time but this wouldn’t apply if the above is true.

 

Also, having returned to the scene, I believe the junction is a major one, which means the bus lane should end 30 metres before the junction and it doesn’t;

it ends approx. 24.5 metres before.

 

Also, the bus lane covers a dropped kerbway, which should have a yellow box or the bus lane should end before the dropped kerbway,

which would mean I was in the bus lane for 1-2 seconds!

 

Any of the points above would make the bus lane unenforceable.

 

The problem is that despite my research, I don’t know if any of these points apply legally.

 

If they do, then this would make the bus lane unenforceable but I can’t help feeling that someone along the way would have raised these points.

 

If the penalty is simply for being in the bus lane regardless, then maybe I just need to pay up and forget the PATAS appeal?

I would appreciate any input as there are many elements to this and I’m getting very confused!

 

I would love to talk to someone about this, hence my reason for being here.

 

Thanks in advance.

 

(I tried to re-edit and put back the hard returns but without luck!)

Edited by YazzyQue
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They've given me another chance to pay the discounted price. Wasn't sure if it's because I have some/any valid points or because they're being quite fair and reasonable for a change! I'm guessing the latter because of your reply.

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They've given me another chance to pay the discounted price. Wasn't sure if it's because I have some/any valid points or because they're being quite fair and reasonable for a change! I'm guessing the latter because of your reply.

 

To be honest reading your post gave me a headache! lol Can you just list the bullet points why you think you should not pay and then we can see if any are of merit.

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I've broken it down as follows:

• I was only in the bus lane for 2-3 secs according to the CCTV footage they sent. I think the de minimis rule applies as the breach was short and I travelled in the bus lane for about 5 metres. • I requested CCTV footage in my informal appeal but they didn’t send it to me until they rejected my formal appeal.

• The bus lane doesn’t stop 30 metres before a major junction and the TMO says that it should. It stops approx. 24.5 metres before the junction.

• The bus lane extends over a dropped kerbway and I don’t think it should.

• In the rejection letter they state that ‘the distance traveled, the length of time in a bus lane or the fact that no buses were using the bus lane at this time

does not warrant a cancellation for this type of contravention.

 

The correct course of action would have been to stay in your lane and then turn left or right at the traffic lane and not enter the bus lane…

also there is no statutory requirement for signage indicating CCTV enforcement’.

Is this true?

The first camera sign appears along way before the point of contravention, and the post that holds the CCTV camera has no information about it and I thought it should state details.

 

• In the rejection letter they gave me another opportunity to pay the reduced fine within 21 days or take it to PATAS and risk paying £130.

I have until 19/04 to take advantage of the reduced fine.

 

Now, I don’t know whether they’ve done this as a goodwill gesture or because I may have a case and they think ‘better to get £65 than nothing at all.’

Hope this helps!

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[i can't seem to get the text in a list and this isn't helping me to make things clearer!] It gave me a headache too! Apologies for that. I've broken it down as follows:

• I was only in the bus lane for 2-3 secs according to the CCTV footage they sent. I think the de minimis rule applies as the breach was short and I travelled in the bus lane for about 5 metres.

 

possible depends on the mood of the adjudicator

 

• I requested CCTV footage in my informal appeal but they didn’t send it to me until they rejected my formal appeal.

 

they don't have to you law states are supposed to go visit the town hall or similar

 

• The bus lane doesn’t stop 30 metres before a major junction and the TMO says that it should. It stops approx. 24.5 metres before the junction.

 

if the bit you drove in is not in the TMO then there is no contravention

 

• The bus lane extends over a dropped kerbway and I don’t think it should.

 

you have just made that up

 

• In the rejection letter they state that ‘the distance traveled, the length of time in a bus lane or the fact that no buses were using the bus lane at this time does not warrant a cancellation for this type of contravention. The correct course of action would have been to stay in your lane and then turn left or right at the traffic lane and not enter the bus lane… also there is no statutory requirement for signage indicating CCTV enforcement’. Is this true? The first camera sign appears along way before the point of contravention, and the post that holds the CCTV camera has no information about it and I thought it should state details.

 

yes its true there is no mention of cctv signs in the bus lane legislation

 

• In the rejection letter they gave me another opportunity to pay the reduced fine within 21 days or take it to PATAS and risk paying £130. I have until 19/04 to take advantage of the reduced fine. Now, I don’t know whether they’ve done this as a goodwill gesture or because I may have a case and they think ‘better to get £65 than nothing at all.’ Hope this helps!

 

Hope that helps, without seeing the tape its hard to make a judgement on the chances at PATAS

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Hello Green and Mean, Thanks for the reply. • The bus lane extends over a dropped kerbway and I don’t think it should. you have just made that up I didn't, honestly. At other side roads along the Staines Road, there are yellow boxes or a break in the bus lane. At the point I mentioned, there isn't and I felt that there should be. Wondered if there was any rule about this, that's all. Looking again at my paper work, I've just noticed that they've sent me the wrong appeal form. The one they sent applies to parking tickets and NOT a bus lane penalty. Any thoughts? I'm guessing it doesn't matter. Thanks for you input, it's much appreciated.

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Hello Green and Mean, Thanks for the reply. • The bus lane extends over a dropped kerbway and I don’t think it should. you have just made that up I didn't, honestly. At other side roads along the Staines Road, there are yellow boxes or a break in the bus lane. At the point I mentioned, there isn't and I felt that there should be. Wondered if there was any rule about this, that's all. Looking again at my paper work, I've just noticed that they've sent me the wrong appeal form. The one they sent applies to parking tickets and NOT a bus lane penalty. Any thoughts? I'm guessing it doesn't matter. Thanks for you input, it's much appreciated.

 

They put breaks in bus lanes to turn left not to use a drop kerb which is permitted.

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It says, 'Traffic Management Act 2004. Your right to appeal against a Parking Penalty.'

 

Bingo! We got there in the end the whole thing is invalid. What have you actually received so far, just the PCN? You should have got a bus lane PCN followed by an enforcement notice. You can get off this but you need to make sure you do it correctly and don't miss any deadlines.

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I've received the following: A bus lane PCN, an Enforcement Notice, and a Formal Appeal Rejection letter. That letter contained the CCTV footage and the incorrect Appeal Form.

 

They gave me an opportunity to pay the discounted amount of £65 within 21 days (due by 19/04) or take it to PATAS appeal within 28 days (by 26/04 at the latest). So, what do I do next? How do I do this correctly, seeing as I don't have the correct form?

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I've received the following: A bus lane PCN, an Enforcement Notice, and a Formal Appeal Rejection letter. That letter contained the CCTV footage and the incorrect Appeal Form.

 

They gave me an opportunity to pay the discounted amount of £65 within 21 days (due by 19/04) or take it to PATAS appeal within 28 days (by 26/04 at the latest). So, what do I do next? How do I do this correctly, seeing as I don't have the correct form?

 

You said you had a parking PCN but now its a Bus lane PCN? What form mentioned a parking PCN was it the PATAS form?

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I never said I had a parking PCN. It's a bus lane PCN but the PATAS appeal form that they sent with my rejection letter is a parking penalty form that quotes TMA 2004. From what you've said, they should have sent a bus lane penalty form.

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I never said I had a parking PCN. It's a bus lane PCN but the PATAS appeal form that they sent with my rejection letter is a parking penalty form that quotes TMA 2004. From what you've said, they should have sent a bus lane penalty form.

 

OK send in an appeal on the grounds there has been a procedural impropriety on behalf of the Council in that they sent you the wrong forms.

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Why do that? Cases useful for you: 2120089430, 2110039979, 211013314A.

 

The truth? Because I wasn't thinking clearly and got confused with it all! Thought it was the best way forward. Many thanks for the case ref info though, much appreciated. I'll make sure I post the outcome.

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