Sacked for misconduct (will appeal)

[darkrage]

Ok sacked for misconduct - i have a few questions:-

 

1. The letter in which I was informed of the decision to dismiss me with the effect of the date of the letter was not officially signed by anyone from the company I worked for - does this mean it does not stand as its not signed?

 

2. reasons for dismissal are not sufficient for gross misconduct - no prior warnings etc -

reasons by company given were - failure to carry out management instruction and gross insubordination.

I worked for a haulage company who requested I picked aload up from 2 places - I was only able to pick up one in my working day - every wednesday I pick up my daughter and was not able to work overtime for which management new i am unable to as this has been the case for 6 months and I had already completed 1 hrs OT before shift start.

 

Do I have a good case for unfair dismissal?

[Sidewinder]

How long have you worked there?

 

On the day in question, did you inform the employer when they asked you to drop two loads that you would not be able to do so?

 

As far as I am aware, whether the letter is signed or not is largely irrelevant - you could point it out to them but they would probably just reprint and sign it!

[darkrage]

ok ty for reply - I have worked with the company 4 years and on the day in question I had not informed him in the morning but as this has been the case for 6 months and have not been required to inform him as i had previously informed him every wednesday i am unable to work over time at the end of my shift.

[pappsy7]

Hi Mate

 

Have you ever sat down together and discussed this in a review or better yet put it down on paper?

 

Tom

[darkrage]

sorry also - i am required to do a reasonable amount of overtime as long as i have recieved reasonable notice - I had already worked 14.5hrs by the wednesday. There are some other deeper issues with regards to contract also which i will have to discuss with CAB as our contracts have not been updated or signed by me since payscales have changed 2 times negatively and 1 time positively but still less money than the original contract i signed 4 years ago.

[darkrage]

Hi Mate

 

Have you ever sat down together and discussed this in a review or better yet put it down on paper?

 

Tom

 

only discussed verbally with manager to inform him of my requirement on the wednesday of which he had no issues with.

[pappsy7]

However you have discussed this at the beginning of your employment?

 

And has this been an ongoing discussion with each other?

[darkrage]

It was never an issue and was not re discussed by my manager until the dismissal.

No not at the beginning of employment only when my childcare needs changed 6 months ago.

[Sidewinder]

I think before any consideration of Unfair Dismissal you need to go through the formality of an appeal against your dismissal. This needs to be constructed around the fact that you had an agreement with your employer that you were not required to work overtime on a Wednesday due to childcare commitments. This agreement had been in place for six months without any complaint by the employer and you had not been notified that the agreement was under review or had been revoked in any way.

 

You should also stress that in your four years of service you have never been insubordinate, nor refused any reasonable request to carry out extra duties and that the employer's actions in dismissing without warning are, you feel, unfair in the circumstances.

 

This may work, but there are no guarantees. You will notice that I use the word 'agreement' and this is the seed that you need to plant. If this were to have been a formal flexible working arrangement to allow you to care for a child, then you would be on stronger ground, but with only an informal, verbal, agreement this is harder, and it is entirely possible that the employer would be entitled to dismiss for the grounds stated in the absence of a specific conversation about the workload on that particular day.

[pappsy7]

Ah right ok, so you have been employed for 4 years with them, but 6 months ago, you made them aware that you need flexibility around your shifts and in return you would work overtime?

 

There is always an argument of an 'Oral Agreement' in a case like this however it can sometimes be very hard to prove.

 

Is there a possibility to get a copy of your last 6 months or as much as possible of your work rota's? because this would show that the Employer has acknowledged the need to help you and has adjusted there rostering around your child care needs

[darkrage]

This may work, but there are no guarantees. You will notice that I use the word 'agreement' and this is the seed that you need to plant. If this were to have been a formal flexible working arrangement to allow you to care for a child, then you would be on stronger ground, but with only an informal, verbal, agreement this is harder, and it is entirely possible that the employer would be entitled to dismiss for the grounds stated in the absence of a specific conversation about the workload on that particular day.

 

the quote in red - sorry I had informed my manager that to pick up from the second location would incurr overtime of which I was unable todo due to childcare.

 

thanks for the reply sideinder I will use this as my main defence in the appeal - I should have gone to spec savers and got a formal written agreement. but at the time my manager had not indicated there would be a requirement for this.

[darkrage]

Ah right ok, so you have been employed for 4 years with them, but 6 months ago, you made them aware that you need flexibility around your shifts and in return you would work overtime?

 

There is always an argument of an 'Oral Agreement' in a case like this however it can sometimes be very hard to prove.

 

Is there a possibility to get a copy of your last 6 months or as much as possible of your work rota's? because this would show that the Employer has acknowledged the need to help you and has adjusted there rostering around your child care needs

 

the overtime was already a requirement not a bargaining tool - we only had a clocking in system installed 3 months ago so i could request this data for the appeal.

[pappsy7]

Yes definitely get the data for that, because that would be a great for you to have, So your able to question them on why for 3 months they hadn't a problem with it but all of a sudden you do 1 thing 'apparently wrong' and they think they have grounds to dismiss you straight away, its laughable.

 

Like Sidewinder says appeal the decision first and when you get a chance to, talk to them face to face re illiterate to them your position argument, and then they may reconsider there stupid mistake.

[darkrage]

thank you all for the help - I will get right on it.

[pappsy7]

thank you all for the help - I will get right on it.

 

 

 

 

good luck and keep me updated.

[SweetLorraine]

It seems a very over the top response by your employer - perhaps it might have more to do with how important the customer is to your employer (that you had to pick up the second load from) than you yourself. Is there any chance of your employer cooling off and discussing reinstatement? Erm, might be worth 'googling' about explicit and implicit terms of employment which might help clarify things a bit for you - in that your contract of imployment isn'y just what is always just what is written down in your contract (explicit terms). There may be implicit understandings as well - perhaps what we used to call 'custom and practise'? (I'm no legal expert by the way - but there are certain informal agreements/work patterns that employers can't simply ignore if things go pear-shaped at a later date in the employment relationship). Are there any trade unions you can refer the matter to?

 

I know at this point in time your may be furious - but do be careful (in the heat of the moment) what you may say to your employer or put in writing right now.

 

All the bast

[pappsy7]

Any update?