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Sainsburys/Cabot/Morgans Court advice - CCA/Application


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All is needed is the statement that: ''We will advise you of your credit limit and may change it from time to time'' or words to that effect.

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so basically I haven't got a case with the CCA? I don't want to give up without a fight

 

in their AQ they have also provided some mock up info with regards to the Default notice and provided a representation of NOA

 

have I got any other choice but to submit?

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My opinion is that you have a copy of the original.

With DNs and NOAs they can just refer to their records

and state that the documents were sent.

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also what are the chances that they have the original document?

 

Probably no chance at all.. but if the reconstruct has been produced from reliable sources then it might well be allowed.

 

Were there any cancellation rights with document ?

 

I have to ask again - is this your only argument ?

 

What about default notices / notice of assignment / statement of accounts showing how the amount being claimed has accrued??

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PLEASE DO NOT ASK ME TO GIVE ADVICE BY PM - IF YOU PROVIDE A LINK TO YOUR THREAD THEN I WILL BE HAPPY TO OFFER ADVICE THERE:D

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Citizen B has also suggested that you Google this case Cabot V Bachelier

for info.

Any Letters I Draft are N0T approved by CAG and no personal liability is accepted.

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Probably no chance at all.. but if the reconstruct has been produced from reliable sources then it might well be allowed.

 

Were there any cancellation rights with document ?

 

I have to ask again - is this your only argument ?

 

What about default notices / notice of assignment / statement of accounts showing how the amount being claimed has accrued??

 

Sorry cancellation docs with which document?

 

Currently I have no argument!

 

I have DN as sent by Sainsburys - I can upload it but I'm not sure what could be wrong with it - I'll scan it in - I'm sure in Cabot's witness statement they don't even mention sainsburys DN

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Before a claim can be issued certain procedures have to be followed..

 

The company should inform you that you are behind or not making payments - they should issue a Default Notice, advising you that you have breached the agreement and in what way. The Default notice needs to tell you how much the arrears are and when they need to be paid in order to avoid FURTHER ACTION being taken.

 

That date needs to be 14 clear days allowing either 2 working days for 1st class post or 4 days for 2nd class post. There also needs to have been a statement from the OFT included which advises you of your rights as a consumer and what action you can take.

 

If they dont or the DN doesnt conform to regulations laid down by parliament then they are not in a posiiton to take further action.

 

The agreement should have had a cancellation notice box - Have a read of the following

 

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1983/1557/contents/made

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Uploading documents to CAG ** Instructions **

Looking for a draft letter? Use the CAG Library

Dealing with Customer Service Departments? - read the CAG Guide first

1: Making a PPI claim ? - Q & A's and spreadsheets for single premium policy - HERE

2: Take back control of your finances - Debt Diaries

3: Feel Bullied by Creditors or Debt Collectors? Read Here

4: Staying Calm About Debt  Read Here

5: Forum rules - These have been updated - Please Read

BCOBS

1: How can BCOBS protect you from your Banks unfair treatment

2: Does your Bank play fair - You can force your Bank to play Fair with you

3: Banking Conduct of Business Regulations - The Hidden Rules

4: BCOBS and Unfair Treatment - Common Examples of Banks Behaving Badly

5: Fair Treatment for Credit Card Holders and Borrowers - COBS

Advice & opinions given by citizenb are personal, are not endorsed by Consumer Action Group or Bank Action Group, and are offered informally, without prejudice & without liability. Your decisions and actions are your own, and should you be in any doubt, you are advised to seek the opinion of a qualified professional.

PLEASE DO NOT ASK ME TO GIVE ADVICE BY PM - IF YOU PROVIDE A LINK TO YOUR THREAD THEN I WILL BE HAPPY TO OFFER ADVICE THERE:D

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Hi CB - thanks for your help.

 

I think the DN I have is all ok - only thing I can see wrong is that is points at clause 2.2 which is not on my original CCA/application

 

In the reconstructed CCAs they have sent me, there are 2 versions, on the newer terms 2.2 are details of minimum payment.

 

DN is here

http://i938.photobucket.com/albums/ad222/consumerchicken/dn1.jpg

http://i938.photobucket.com/albums/ad222/consumerchicken/dn2.jpg

 

I think I'm shafted!

 

can't find much on that case - will keep looking!

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With all due respect if clause 2.2 is not on the terms and conditions you have been provided with.. then they cannot be the correct t&cs.. can they ??

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Uploading documents to CAG ** Instructions **

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Dealing with Customer Service Departments? - read the CAG Guide first

1: Making a PPI claim ? - Q & A's and spreadsheets for single premium policy - HERE

2: Take back control of your finances - Debt Diaries

3: Feel Bullied by Creditors or Debt Collectors? Read Here

4: Staying Calm About Debt  Read Here

5: Forum rules - These have been updated - Please Read

BCOBS

1: How can BCOBS protect you from your Banks unfair treatment

2: Does your Bank play fair - You can force your Bank to play Fair with you

3: Banking Conduct of Business Regulations - The Hidden Rules

4: BCOBS and Unfair Treatment - Common Examples of Banks Behaving Badly

5: Fair Treatment for Credit Card Holders and Borrowers - COBS

Advice & opinions given by citizenb are personal, are not endorsed by Consumer Action Group or Bank Action Group, and are offered informally, without prejudice & without liability. Your decisions and actions are your own, and should you be in any doubt, you are advised to seek the opinion of a qualified professional.

PLEASE DO NOT ASK ME TO GIVE ADVICE BY PM - IF YOU PROVIDE A LINK TO YOUR THREAD THEN I WILL BE HAPPY TO OFFER ADVICE THERE:D

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You are still in a position to ask for a Time order or you can ask if they are prepared to negotiate.

Have we helped you ...?         Please Donate button to the Consumer Action Group

Uploading documents to CAG ** Instructions **

Looking for a draft letter? Use the CAG Library

Dealing with Customer Service Departments? - read the CAG Guide first

1: Making a PPI claim ? - Q & A's and spreadsheets for single premium policy - HERE

2: Take back control of your finances - Debt Diaries

3: Feel Bullied by Creditors or Debt Collectors? Read Here

4: Staying Calm About Debt  Read Here

5: Forum rules - These have been updated - Please Read

BCOBS

1: How can BCOBS protect you from your Banks unfair treatment

2: Does your Bank play fair - You can force your Bank to play Fair with you

3: Banking Conduct of Business Regulations - The Hidden Rules

4: BCOBS and Unfair Treatment - Common Examples of Banks Behaving Badly

5: Fair Treatment for Credit Card Holders and Borrowers - COBS

Advice & opinions given by citizenb are personal, are not endorsed by Consumer Action Group or Bank Action Group, and are offered informally, without prejudice & without liability. Your decisions and actions are your own, and should you be in any doubt, you are advised to seek the opinion of a qualified professional.

PLEASE DO NOT ASK ME TO GIVE ADVICE BY PM - IF YOU PROVIDE A LINK TO YOUR THREAD THEN I WILL BE HAPPY TO OFFER ADVICE THERE:D

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Those look good too!

The recons to comply with sect 77/78 CCA 1974

must contain the ''original' Ts & Cs and those relevent

at the sessation of the account so again look correct.

Any Letters I Draft are N0T approved by CAG and no personal liability is accepted.

Please Consider making a donation to keep this site running!

Nemo Mortalium Omnibus Horis Sapit: Animo et Fide:

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Does that mean the default notice is invalid/incorrect?

 

The default notice refers to clause 2.2 of 'terms and conditions', but neither document is called that (or states that) , is this relevant? The document is called 'Credit Agreement Regulated by the Consumer Credit Act 1974'.

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It is not a document title, it's a section of the terms and conditions.

The Document stating Credit Agreement etc. is self explanatory.

Ts & Cs are often quite verbose and can be issued as a booklet

when the card is issued and when there are material changes to

the agreed Ts & Cs.

Any Letters I Draft are N0T approved by CAG and no personal liability is accepted.

Please Consider making a donation to keep this site running!

Nemo Mortalium Omnibus Horis Sapit: Animo et Fide:

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With all due respect if clause 2.2 is not on the terms and conditions you have been provided with.. then they cannot be the correct t&cs.. can they ??

 

Hi CB - I don't quite understand - does this mean DN is invalid?

 

we have been talking about the recontructed agreement - this has never come from cabot just from sainsburys - the reconstructed agreement is the same as the terms on the application form/agreement that cabot have sent.

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Hi CB - I don't quite understand - does this mean DN is invalid?

 

we have been talking about the recontructed agreement - this has never come from cabot just from sainsburys - the reconstructed agreement is the same as the terms on the application form/agreement that cabot have sent.

 

 

I think the DN I have is all ok - only thing I can see wrong is that is points at clause 2.2 which is not on my original CCA/application

 

You say that 2.2 clause is NOT on the original application form/terms and conditions.. if it is not then you could not have breached that clause.

 

If it IS on the terms and condtions then the notice is sound.

 

IMHO, you should be trying to enter into dialogue with the claimant or apply for a Time order from the court.

Have we helped you ...?         Please Donate button to the Consumer Action Group

Uploading documents to CAG ** Instructions **

Looking for a draft letter? Use the CAG Library

Dealing with Customer Service Departments? - read the CAG Guide first

1: Making a PPI claim ? - Q & A's and spreadsheets for single premium policy - HERE

2: Take back control of your finances - Debt Diaries

3: Feel Bullied by Creditors or Debt Collectors? Read Here

4: Staying Calm About Debt  Read Here

5: Forum rules - These have been updated - Please Read

BCOBS

1: How can BCOBS protect you from your Banks unfair treatment

2: Does your Bank play fair - You can force your Bank to play Fair with you

3: Banking Conduct of Business Regulations - The Hidden Rules

4: BCOBS and Unfair Treatment - Common Examples of Banks Behaving Badly

5: Fair Treatment for Credit Card Holders and Borrowers - COBS

Advice & opinions given by citizenb are personal, are not endorsed by Consumer Action Group or Bank Action Group, and are offered informally, without prejudice & without liability. Your decisions and actions are your own, and should you be in any doubt, you are advised to seek the opinion of a qualified professional.

PLEASE DO NOT ASK ME TO GIVE ADVICE BY PM - IF YOU PROVIDE A LINK TO YOUR THREAD THEN I WILL BE HAPPY TO OFFER ADVICE THERE:D

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IMHO, you should be trying to enter into dialogue with the claimant or apply for a Time order from the court.

 

Thanks CB, I can do that tomorrow, but I don't actually know what I'm getting the time for, am I just delaying the inevitable? i definitely don't know what I'd be negotiating for?

 

so far the only argument I have is that the default I have refers to a term that doesn't exist

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I think I've made a right mess of this - the paperwork I have to hand in tomorrow is supposed to be preparation for the hearing and not a revised defence.

 

I pleaded embarassed defence to get the documentation, then for the AQ submit a revised defence saying the CCA was an application form, not understanding that it was in fact an enforcable CCA.

 

So right now I only have the option to write a witness statement - that is not a defence? I cannot mention in there that the Default is invalid etc?

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Technically speaking the defence and the witness statement are distinct documents with distinct purposes. The defence is where you set out the law and how the facts of your case, briefly, apply to the law. Your witness statement is your actual evidence where you explain the facts and support your pleaded defence. If an argument isn't pleaded in the defence you are technically not permitted to rely on it in the hearing.

 

Having said all of that, you are a LiP and therefore unlikely to be too heavily penalised if you mix the documents up a bit.

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Technically speaking the defence and the witness statement are distinct documents with distinct purposes. The defence is where you set out the law and how the facts of your case, briefly, apply to the law. Your witness statement is your actual evidence where you explain the facts and support your pleaded defence. If an argument isn't pleaded in the defence you are technically not permitted to rely on it in the hearing.

 

Having said all of that, you are a LiP and therefore unlikely to be too heavily penalised if you mix the documents up a bit.

 

Well that's good to know - I'm still not sure what to do - will have to ask for more time as a start

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