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    • Hi All, before I start I know there are similar threads of the topic I am raising, and each, of course, has its own unique scenario, which may benefit others. My case is as follows: 1. I saw a gumtree ad on the 16th of Oct 2020 for a Mercedes E220 CDI, priced at 7,500 2. I called the seller and said I will come over on the 17th of Oct 2020 to view. 3. On the 17th of Oct 2020 I went to his place where he is working and viewed the car. He is working for a major car rental company. I checked the car and of course asked the normal things to ask e.g. any insurance write-offs, loans, accidents, etc. The seller said the car is clean etc.no loan, he had a loan but all is paid off etc. and he has the papers. 4. I negotiated the car price to 6,800 because the rims were showing some signs of damage, the rear light had a small burst, cosmetics, etc. I checked all but did not see any sign of damage to the car (it's a black car, the car was a bit dirty, and the sun was already setting in) 5. We agreed on 6,800 and decided to purchase the car. We went into his office, where I paid cash, and also got a Car Sales Invoice with all details of the seller, and a V5C green slip 6. I purchased car insurance and drove off. I asked him about Road Tax and he said Road tax is paid so I have not to worry, just need car insurance. 7. On 18th of Oct 2020 I cleaned the car interior because it was really dirty inside - it took me a few hours so decided to clean the exterior the next day 8. On the 19th of Oct 2020 I went to clean the exterior and after the car was clean I noticed some parts were resprayed. I became a bit suspicious; so on the 19th of Oct 2020 in the eve, I went on the internet and run an HPI check. The outcome from the HPI did not show any accidents, insurance write-off but an outstanding Loan with Moneybarn. At this point, I thought maybe the database is not updated, etc. 9. On the 20th of Oct 2020, morning, things were going through my mind; the seller said the car is clean, no issues, no loan since he settled all etc. but the HPI reports say there is still some outstanding loan. So what I did, I called Moneybarn, and explained the situation, and gave them the contract number as well (since it was displayed on the HPI report). They said they will send me a form by email, but they cannot share any information due to Data Protection (GDPR). fair enough I thought, but what made me boil, they said they OWN the car! So, I took the car and drove to the seller where he is working. I confronted him. He said don't worry, I will handle it, he has no time, he is very busy and bla bla bla. I said what reasons do I have to trust you, you lied, and now you say you still have a debt, etc. So I said I will not leave until he has settled the debt, or repay me my money. I also asked what is outstanding, he said around 7,000. Well, since I confronted him at his workplace he may have felt the heat, he assured he will settle all soon, I said sorry, I need a date, so I said you will settle the debt with Moneybarn by 23 Oct 2020, if not, you will refund me my money. He said Ok he will do it, so I said, since I don't trust you, you will sign a piece of paper, and sign it. On the paper, he wrote "I will clear the debt for the Mercedes by Friday" and signed it. I said I am not happy and added the debt details with contract number, and also a clause that if he fails to settle the debt with Moneybarn by Friday the 23rd of Oct 2020, he will refund me my money, 6,800, and sales of the car Mercedes, license plate, will be void. Also, I said to put an initial on each amendment I made with signature. He did, and I left. 10. On 22 Oct I sent him a message, to remind him to settle the debt by Friday 23 Oct 2020 noontime and also I outlined some legal jargon I had to sent that I received from citizensadvice. 11. On 23 Oct, morning time, I received a message from the seller, he said he will not/cannot refund me the money, not to visit him at his office or place, and that he feels threatened by me. 12. Now, the dilemma/headache; a). I received the form from Moneybarn on the 20th of Oct 2020 and I have to send it back within 7 days b). the seller send me a message he will not refund the money c). is the seller holding the title with Moneybarn or did he also buy and not knowing there is an outstanding loan on it d). did he sent the V5C to DVLA since I have the green slip? e). Shall I fill in the form and sent it to Moneybarn? f). If Moneybarn has all my details they may send someone to repossess the car? 13. I decided, I will not undertake anything yet, because my mind said, go there, confront him, park the car in front of the company since I purchased it there and signed all paperwork in their office, they will call the police, the police will come and surely will not do anything but will force me to remove the car and park somewhere else, record all on camera, take all evidence, sent to Moneybarn and at the same time to the seller's employer (when I asked him to sign a letter he will settle the debt by Friday 23rd of Oct 2020, he used a paper of the car rental company, and on the back, the logo of the rental company is displayed clearly and he may have acted on behalf of the company to sell me the car, after all, I don't know if he holds the title with Moneybarn - well, this is an excuse for me to even sue the car rental company, or blacklist him with the company he is working for since it seems he is some type of manager there and he may have acted in the capacity as a sales person to sell the car to me on behalf the company....). 14. So on the 23rd of Oct 2020, I didn't do anything like described under 13....it's not my style as such I called AWH solicitors, explained all, and they said one person is specialized in dealing with such cases and will call me back after studying my case and inform me if it is something they can fight or not. So they will call me Monday the 26th of Oct 2020. I also said I want to go now and confront the seller, but she said better wait till Monday, and if they can fight the case, they will tell me the next course of action - but my funds are limited and cannot afford a lengthy battle, because if no case against Moneybarn means I will have to sue the seller to the court which will cost me. The car has comprehensive insurance and with all this saga I added on the 20th of Oct 2020 also legal insurance on top. Lengthy story, but I am trying to be as detailed as I can, and yes I should have done an HPI before buying the car, but I am from Holland and car sales work there a bit different, and this is my first time I buy from a private seller. Well, once I have sent the form to Moneybarn, I will park the car in a garage, and at this stage, I am renting a room in a house (there is one more tenant). Since I am from Holland, I am planning a trip within 2 weeks to visit my family and I will drive down with the car and in the meanwhile wait if the solicitor can be of any help. I need some advice though, I am still planning to drive down to the seller on Tuesday after I talked with the solicitor, park the car in front of the company, and confront the seller, and try to record all. I will also try to make him sign a letter that I purchased the car in good faith from him (regardless if he holds the title with Moneybarn or not but at least I purchased in good faith from him). Evidence that I have: 1. Car sales invoice 2. Paper that I made him sign 3. Gumtree ad; I could retract this from google history, but the original add removed from gumtree. At least I can show it was advertised 4. I tried to create a history of past owners, total owners including me are 5. It seems the car was also posted on gumtree before by a company in Essex (I saw on google). The reason for doing this, it is very likely that the seller purchased the car from someone else with an outstanding loan. Since then I read a lot on the internet, so please any advice is welcome to pursue my case, I paid a lot and at least I want my money back. Also what I read so far, Moneybarn is not easy to deal with...thanks in advance for any advice I can use for my case.
    • Hi   I think you need to check not just the serial number but what Meter Point Reference Number (MPRN) as the MPRN is what is registered and energy supplier go off as well as the serial number.   So you need to see what the MPRN is as well as the energy supplier it is registered with.   If you look at this Ofgem link: https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/consumers/household-gas-and-electricity-guide/connections-and-moving-home/who-my-gas-or-electricity-supplier   In the above link to do this check it gives a link to:   Find My Supplier: https://www.findmysupplier.energy/webapp/index.html (note you may have to complete a captcha, then input your postcode only and click find my address, when the list comes up click on your exact address, you will then see you actual MPRN and the energy supplier linked to your address)   With the above make sure and take the details of the MPRN and the Energy Supplier, better still take a screenshot/pdf the webpage.   Please let use know if on doing the above it matches your current supplier?  
    • I had exactly the same issues.   Grossly over estimated bills from January onwards.  Despite what they claim, they are effectively taking an interest free loan from their customer base to keep the company in business.   They can dress it up how they like.  It’s irrelevant if they reconcile the bills the following month because they just over bill again thus keeping a rolling interest free loan.   it took two months of constant badgering to be finally moved to a fixed DD.   Once that was done I didn’t care how much they over-estimated by.   I had raised a query with the ombudsman over the billing fiasco and they readied a complaint should I wish to proceed.   I thought everything was sorted until May/June whereby I was allegedly more in debt then I was expecting to the tune of an extra months DD.   On querying it, it transpired that even though I was on a fixed monthly DD, because the bill was generated less than 5 days before the DD was due to be taken they didn’t take the DD.   They offered £5 compensation by way of apology but wanted to take two months DD in June.  I told them where to get off.   With appalling customer service,  bills that you need a Maths degree to follow, and I do have one and still struggled, inability to follow through on any agreements, constant gross over-estimation, the missed DD was the final straw and I proceeded with complaint to ombudsman.   Prior to getting to that stage I had to quote Symbio’s own complaints procedure to them to get any sort of response.   Their final offer to me was £25 goodwill and to waive an exit fee. The offer was derisory given the time it had taken to get things sorted and the continuing ineptitude.  Also, the whole thing has dragged on so long (5 months) I was already in the final 49 days of my contract and therefore there were no exit fees to pay and therefore nothing to waive.   Anyway, upshot is, ombudsman found in my favour.  Ordered an apology and a goodwill payment. Symbio appealed but were told the decision stood.   This week I received the goodwill payment.   I promptly left an honest and truthful review on trustpilot.   The next morning I received an email from Symbio with an apology.   This was followed an hour later with an email from trustpilot saying Symbio had replied to the review.  On reading the response they have accused me of not following procedure and of cyber bullying.   The company is a complete joke.
    • why not simply tell you supplier they have the wrong meter number you been paying for usage , and ofcourse you can view this online too so its not as if you'll owe anything you might get a nice surprise and find you are owed a refund.
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    • I came across this discussion recently and just wanted to give my experience of A Shade Greener that may help others regarding their boiler finance agreement.
       
      We had a 10yr  finance contract for a boiler fitted July 2015.
       
      After a summer of discontent with ASG I discovered that if you have paid HALF the agreement or more you can legally return the boiler to them at no cost to yourself. I've just returned mine the feeling is liberating.
       
      It all started mid summer during lockdown when they refused to service our boiler because we didn't have a loft ladder or flooring installed despite the fact AS installed the boiler. and had previosuly serviced it without issue for 4yrs. After consulting with an independent installer I was informed that if this was the case then ASG had breached building regulations,  this was duly reported to Gas Safe to investigate and even then ASG refused to accept blame and repeatedly said it was my problem. Anyway Gas Safe found them in breach of building regs and a compromise was reached.
       
      A month later and ASG attended to service our boiler but in the process left the boiler unusuable as it kept losing pressure not to mention they had damaged the filling loop in the process which they said was my responsibilty not theres and would charge me to repair, so generous of them! Soon after reporting the fault I got a letter stating it was time we arranged a powerflush on our heating system which they make you do after 5 years even though there's nothing in the contract that states this. Coincidence?
       
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      The boiler was removed and replaced by a reputable installer,  and the old boiler was returned to ASG thus ending our contract with them. What's mad is I saved in excess of £1000 in the long run and got a new boiler with a brand new 12yr warranty. 
       
      You only have to look at TrustPilot to get an idea of what this company is like.
       
      • 3 replies
    • Dazza a few months ago I discovered a good friend of mine who had ten debts with cards and catalogues which he was slavishly paying off at detriment to his own family quality of life, and I mean hardship, not just absence of second holidays or flat screen TV's.
       
      I wrote to all his creditors asking for supporting documents and not one could provide any material that would allow them to enforce the debt.
       
      As a result he stopped paying and they have been unable to do anything, one even admitted it was unenforceable.
       
      If circumstances have got to the point where you are finding it unmanageable you must ask yourself why you feel the need to pay.  I guarantee you that these companies have built bad debt into their business model and no one over there is losing any sleep over your debt to them!  They will see you as a victim and cash cow and they will be reluctant to discuss final offers, only ways to keep you paying with threats of court action or seizing your assets if you have any.
       
      They are not your friends and you owe them no loyalty or moral duty, that must remain only for yourself and your family.
       
      If it was me I would send them all a CCA request.   I would bet that not one will provide the correct response and you can quite legally stop paying them until such time as they do provide a response.   Even when they do you should check back here as they mostly send dodgy photo copies or generic rubbish that has no connection with your supposed debt.
       
      The money you are paying them should, as far as you are able, be put to a savings account for yourself and as a means of paying of one of these fleecers should they ever manage to get to to the point of a successful court judgement.  After six years they will not be able to start court action and that money will then become yours.
       
      They will of course pursue you for the funds and pass your file around various departments of their business and out to third parties.
       
      Your response is that you should treat it as a hobby.  I have numerous files of correspondence each faithfully organised showing the various letters from different DCA;s , solicitors etc with a mix of threats, inducements and offers.   It is like my stamp collection and I show it to anyone who is interested!
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And dont forget they are not selling your data - only the agreement - they are simply sharing the data that relates to the asset they have sold.

 

Look up the law of property act as regards assignments.

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No sharing is sharing selling is selling

 

I share my house sometimes with family does that mean i have sold it them?

 

Why worry? am not worrying its the principle of how they operate. You said they can sell on an agreement without having the agreement. How so? If there is no proof of an agreement how can they sell it?

 

Can you sell a car when you cant prove you own it - No!

 

And its Consumer Law not property law so it is irrelevant

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To put it as simply as I can, when an account is defaulted it is put in a box, after so long that box gets in the way so they offer it and the content to debt collecting agencies on highest bid wins the lot. Some of the stuff in that box has been there for years, all the bank knows it that if all the agreements in the box were paid up, they would be worth xxx pounds. The DCAs bids and the winner takes the box away for sorting out.

 

Now it could be that the amount of uncollectable agreements in the box far outnumber the collectable ones and it could be that the dca has in fact paid more for your account than is outstanding. It's swings and roundabouts, but in the main, they don't have a fixed price they paid for one defaulted agreement, so couldn't say we paid xx pounds for it.

 

Statute barred debts are still legitimate debts to pursue and always remain that way. The SB means that they cannot use the courts to enforce the collection but they can continue to chase it forever.

 

Some judges have been ignoring the fact there is no agreement with a signature on and have issued a ccj on the 'why have you been paying £xx per month if there is no agreement' basis, you wouldn't be paying if there was no agreement so there must have been one at some time.

Edited by Conniff
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Yep understand everything you said their Coniff

 

Lets forget about finding how much they buy a debt for as it just comes to a dead end and is too complex

 

What irritates me is when people start saying this is same as this and that whn it quite clearly isnt

 

I also know that judges have been passing CCJ's uisng the argument you mentioned above but in my view when a creditor fails to provide a valid agreement and default notice i fail to see how they can when the law is quite clear that if terms on agreements are not set out as per regulations they cannot be enforced, same applies to default notices, one has to be issued in the perscribed form for further action to be taken.

 

It is not a case of trying to say the debt doesnt exist as i believe they should be paid one way or other. What my answer would be is how can a creditor 100% state in court that everything was in the perscribed form as per the CCA. If they cannot prove this they should not be allowed to take further action until they do so.

 

Same goes for selling of agreements, if they cannot prove an agreement was in place then they should be barred from selling that debt as what evidence other than their word do they have of the original balance , APR total charge and payments etc

 

 

My main 2 points and quite valid that i dont want to get lost in all this are:

  • It should be clearly written into terms and conditions or on the agreement itself that a creditor may sell on the balance to a third party in the event of default
  • If the creditr is willing to accept a reduced fee from a DCA then that fee should be first offered to the consumer to be given the chance to clear it

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They would probably make a lot more money if they were to offer it at 50% of the outstanding amount and give 30 days to pay that amount. I think it shows that they don't give one hoot about joe public, customers are just a commodity like the agreements, if you have to borrow then you are a peasant and as such we will treat you as one, so we would rather sell your outstanding agreement to a ****** company for a tenner than to you for fifty.

 

Be it tragedy or unemployment that caused the default, they just don't care "not my problem".

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Brigader!stop trying to win arguments and actually try to help people for a change!

For your informnation I am not trying to win arguments just trying to get the simple facts over to the users on here especially when

some of the statment/ claims etc., are fundamentally worong.

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No sharing is sharing selling is selling

 

I share my house sometimes with family does that mean i have sold it them?

 

Why worry? am not worrying its the principle of how they operate. You said they can sell on an agreement without having the agreement. How so? If there is no proof of an agreement how can they sell it?

 

Can you sell a car when you cant prove you own it - No!

 

And its Consumer Law not property law so it is irrelevant

 

The sale and purchase of the debt is under the Law of Property act.

Also there in no obligation on the creditor to supply a copy of any agreement

with a SAR as this is dealt with sects.77/78 etc CCA1974

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You should be sent a copy of the agreement in response to an SAR - if you are not then they have not complied with your SAR. An SAR is made under the data protection act. (If they do not have a copy then they do not need to send it you to comply - they only have to send what they actually have).

 

The £1 payment is for a legal request made under the Consumer Credit Act - and is specifically for the Agreement. (If they fail to comply with this request then they are barred from enforcing the agreement).

 

You can use the SAR to find out if the document sent in reply to a s77-79 request is a genuine copy. Under an SAR the creditor has to send a copy of the document - not a reconstituted copy. This will probably be a copy of the application, but at least you will know what the OC has.

 

Alan

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The sale and purchase of the debt is under the Law of Property act.

Also there in no obligation on the creditor to supply a copy of any agreement

with a SAR as this is dealt with sects.77/78 etc CCA1974

 

 

Brigadier

 

According to the people I have spoken to at the ICO, the agreement is personal data, and should be included in any SAR package, if they still have it.

 

Alan

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When have i mentioned a SAR?

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No sharing is sharing selling is selling

 

I share my house sometimes with family does that mean i have sold it them?

 

Why worry? am not worrying its the principle of how they operate. You said they can sell on an agreement without having the agreement. How so? If there is no proof of an agreement how can they sell it? Because the agreement exists.

 

Can you sell a car when you cant prove you own it - No!

 

And its Consumer Law not property law so it is irrelevant

Erm i am afraid you need to research assignments..

 

The sale of an agreement is covered by the law of property act - Fact.

I and many others have researched assignments for over 2 years - look up hfo and see what work has been done on this subject.

 

If you are so sure of your arguement find one case history or peice of legislation that states your point. If you tried to go into court with these arguments i am afraid you would lose - simple as.

 

It is law - if you don't like the law - lobby to change it - but if you are looking for holes in this you are not going to find any i am afraid.

Edited by dadofholly
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Brigadier

 

According to the people I have spoken to at the ICO, the agreement is personal data, and should be included in any SAR package, if they still have it.

 

Alan

 

You are correct Alan - but if they dont have a copy they can't send it (i have been down this route personaly).

 

However a s. 77/78 request is a different matter.

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Some creditors will send an agreement with a SAR others will not unless a seperate request

with a £1 fee is paid.

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My main 2 points and quite valid that i dont want to get lost in all this are:

 

  • It should be clearly written into terms and conditions or on the agreement itself that a creditor may sell on the balance to a third party in the event of default The problem is that the agreement is financial - you borrow and agree to pay back - it has nothing to do with who owns the agreement - they are two different issues and are covered by two different acts of parliament (The CCA and Law of Property Act.
     
    You need to split in your mind the issue of an agreement - and ownership of the agreement - as the law does (like it or not)
     

  • If the creditr is willing to accept a reduced fee from a DCA then that fee should be first offered to the consumer to be given the chance to clear it This is a good idea and i doubt you would find anyone against it on these boards. But Finance industry will not go for it.
     
    The problem is people may simply click on - refuse to pay their debts knowing full well that they can just cough up half as a settlement at a later date.

 

Above in red.

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Also 'secrecy' regarding any information held on an individual by any agency or body private or public is only allowed to be 'tolerated' under the auspices of whether it is in the 'public interest' to reveal the information or not.

 

Under ECHR legislaton we have been given the data protection act, RIPA, ICO, Freedom of Information Act, it is my opinion that we arent using it enough to give the DCA'S and their agents a much harder time.

 

Thats why there is such a huge issue with the press at the moment. They just cant do what they did for years without any fear anymore!

 

The problems with this argument is we are talking about private companies here - profit making businesses.

 

It is not secrecey - it is their right to keep their private business transactions private.

 

Businesses are not in the habit of advertising commercial information to their competitors. The sale price of the debt is not necessary to defend a case in court - if it was the judge would order it.

 

Judges have ordered the deed of sale to be provided in court. If the sale price is relevant - and you can argue why it is - then a Judge will order it. But what is arguement for the request?

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The sale and purchase of the debt is under the Law of Property act.

Also there in no obligation on the creditor to supply a copy of any agreement

with a SAR as this is dealt with sects.77/78 etc CCA1974

 

Disagree on the last point Brig - and have had this confirmed by ICO - had long arguments over this. An SAR is for ALL data they hold on you including the agreement - but if they dont have it they dont need to supply it with an SAR.

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Exactly-as MBNA say "..unless you can prove "Bank Error"- A default will be overturned..!And we can sell your account at any time without telling you"

 

If they sell your account you have to be informed by a notice of assignment.

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An agreement may exist but the regulations are clear.

 

An agreement has to be set out in the perscribed form and accompanied by a default notice set out in the perscribed form for further action to be taken on defaulted accounts.

 

It is clear as day and if these regulations stipulate the presence of an agreement is needed between two parties and defualt notices set out as persribed are required then whats the point in having such regulations if they just get ignored.

 

A creditor should be required to provide substantial proof of everything contained within the agreement and relevant default notices before it is passed on to who ever.

 

I see now they seem to rely on the fact they have accounts and judges take that as enough to warrant CCJ's been issued. I can go on excel now and knock up all kinds of agreements for different people but without proof how do i substantiate anything exists between us - i dont.

 

As for the T&C's they maybe different acts of parliament but it is a consumers personal information we are talking about here, on which the ICO is very clear on how it should be dealt with. How can a company need your permission to pass on your info to CRA's, Solicitors etc but they can just go sell all your personal details to anyone they like?

 

Where is the Data Protection in that exactly?

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James i have already covered that - Most, (if not all), agreements will have a clause stating that you agree to you details being passed on. No it does not say sold - nor does it say provided free of charge.

 

YOU - believe there is a difference - the nuances of law do not.

 

The sale of the agreement is covered by the Law of property act - and so can be lawfully sold.

 

the data is covered by the DPA - and can be passed on as agreed.

 

The issue of proving the existence of the agreement is covered by the CCA - (and they Carey Ruling) This issue can be argued in court.

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So you are saying get credit use the facility, don't pay for

it and then rely on the non production of a document that you

signed and were given a copy of at the time when you are

pressed for payment, the creditor has statements showing

traceable use of the credit facility and you contended you are

not going to pay be cause the creditor can't supply something

that you have already been given.?????????????

Any Letters I Draft are N0T approved by CAG and no personal liability is accepted.

Please Consider making a donation to keep this site running!

Nemo Mortalium Omnibus Horis Sapit: Animo et Fide:

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Who said dont pay its you thats saying that.

 

But if a creditor can go to court with no documentation, cannot even prove that the default notice is issued as perscribed and in accordance with the CCA get a CJJ against the debtor where is the protection for the consumer in that?

 

Is the CCA that clearly states it nothing to do with what i beleive, think you need to stop asuming people are trying to avoid their debts and see that regulations have been wriiten for a reason - to stop things like above

 

If a company canot be bothered to keep their documentation in order with all the systems that are in place this day an age why should they get the easy ride in court?

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