Jump to content


  • Tweets

  • Posts

    • Again, don't worry, the defence is really only intended to stop the other side winning by default.  The "meat" of your case is the Witness Statement. We'll have a good read through what you have prepared today and suggest some tweaks. We need to see what UKPC have put in their WS.
    • Anyone had a bad experience of Civil Enforcement Limited (CEL), Greenwich?  I'm considering taking a complaint to our Greenwich MP, to dig into CEL's unlawful and unethical practices.  CEL is making an incredible amount of money scamming motorists with huge, dis-proportionate fines in many cases - looking for any discrepancy and then attempting to bamboozle motorists with legal fear-mongering. I've just won a POPLA appeal after a few months contesting a private land penalty charge notice (PCN) from Civil Enforcement Limited (CEL).  I used the private car park at 237-259 Greenwich High Road, SE10 8NB several months ago - correctly paying for my full stay.  To my annoyance I received a £100 fine a month later from CEL - and only after my querying and sharing my receipts, CEL stated that the fine was because it had taken me slightly longer than 10 mins to acquire a ticket (their small-print terms on the car park sign states the cut off is 10 mins of entry).  CEL immediately rejected my appeal (that the busy/crowded car park caused delays in securing a parking spot, making it impossible to meet the allotted 10 min cut off).  However, I escalated to a POPLA (the independent appeals service for PCNs issued on private land) - who were incredible.  POPLA truly listened to the facts unbiased and collected fair and appropriate evidence, before throwing out the PCN.  It's been a mild annoyance over the past months - but at least I'm vindicated. With the number of terrible reviews of CEL online (*link below), I'm surprised they've been allowed to continue operating at that location (I'm not sure of their practices elsewhere, so cannot comment there).  If anything comes out of this, I urge anyone receiving private land PCNs from CEL, to closely look at the contravention.  If you've genuinely paid and it's not your fault, I'd urge you to appeal to POPLA.  FIVE TIPS IF MAKING A POPLA APPEAL: 1.  Read the instructions and paperwork carefully, and follow POPLA's guidance - 2.  Be clear, concise, but brief in your responses - 3.  Make sure to address every itemised argument that CEL makes (failure to address specific points may work against you) - 4.  Don't be put off by the number of case laws, rules and codes that CEL will cite and throw at you (these are designed to overwhelm and distract - remember that motorists have protections too) - 5.  Familiarise yourself with the relevant section/s of the 'British Parking Association (BPA) Guidelines' if you can. *https://en.parkopedia.co.uk/parking/carpark/greenwich_high_road/se10/london/?arriving=202405221830&leaving=202405222030
    • own thread created for this debt. is the address for the date of takeout correct on the paploc reply return agreement copy the rest is std rubble all dca's return with no DN i see. dx
    • Here's the defence - this was submitted before finding this site.  Worried that it is too different from the witness statement in terms of grounds.  will it be OK? Parking appeal UK CAR PARKS defense redacted.pdf
    • Normally Preliminary Hearings or as they were called Case Management Hearings are usually to set directions after allocation if from the particulars of claim or defence are unclear that it requires a hearing for the judge to determine and set directions for the claim to proceed.(N157) So he may direct what is to be disclosed for trial or whether the claimant must further validate their claim....it wont be a he said she said hearing of who did what.   Andy  
  • Our picks

    • If you are buying a used car – you need to read this survival guide.
      • 1 reply
    • Hello,

      On 15/1/24 booked appointment with Big Motoring World (BMW) to view a mini on 17/1/24 at 8pm at their Enfield dealership.  

      Car was dirty and test drive was two circuits of roundabout on entry to the showroom.  Was p/x my car and rushed by sales exec and a manager into buying the mini and a 3yr warranty that night, sale all wrapped up by 10pm.  They strongly advised me taking warranty out on car that age (2017) and confirmed it was honoured at over 500 UK registered garages.

      The next day, 18/1/24 noticed amber engine warning light on dashboard , immediately phoned BMW aftercare team to ask for it to be investigated asap at nearest garage to me. After 15 mins on hold was told only their 5 service centres across the UK can deal with car issues with earliest date for inspection in March ! Said I’m not happy with that given what sales team advised or driving car. Told an amber warning light only advisory so to drive with caution and call back when light goes red.

      I’m not happy to do this, drive the car or with the after care experience (a sign of further stresses to come) so want a refund and to return the car asap.

      Please can you advise what I need to do today to get this done. 
       

      Many thanks 
      • 81 replies
    • Housing Association property flooding. https://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/topic/438641-housing-association-property-flooding/&do=findComment&comment=5124299
      • 162 replies
    • We have finally managed to obtain the transcript of this case.

      The judge's reasoning is very useful and will certainly be helpful in any other cases relating to third-party rights where the customer has contracted with the courier company by using a broker.
      This is generally speaking the problem with using PackLink who are domiciled in Spain and very conveniently out of reach of the British justice system.

      Frankly I don't think that is any accident.

      One of the points that the judge made was that the customers contract with the broker specifically refers to the courier – and it is clear that the courier knows that they are acting for a third party. There is no need to name the third party. They just have to be recognisably part of a class of person – such as a sender or a recipient of the parcel.

      Please note that a recent case against UPS failed on exactly the same issue with the judge held that the Contracts (Rights of Third Parties) Act 1999 did not apply.

      We will be getting that transcript very soon. We will look at it and we will understand how the judge made such catastrophic mistakes. It was a very poor judgement.
      We will be recommending that people do include this adverse judgement in their bundle so that when they go to county court the judge will see both sides and see the arguments against this adverse judgement.
      Also, we will be to demonstrate to the judge that we are fair-minded and that we don't mind bringing everything to the attention of the judge even if it is against our own interests.
      This is good ethical practice.

      It would be very nice if the parcel delivery companies – including EVRi – practised this kind of thing as well.

       

      OT APPROVED, 365MC637, FAROOQ, EVRi, 12.07.23 (BRENT) - J v4.pdf
        • Like

Penalty Fare Issued at Liverpool Street


style="text-align: center;">  

Thread Locked

because no one has posted on it for the last 4478 days.

If you need to add something to this thread then

 

Please click the "Report " link

 

at the bottom of one of the posts.

 

If you want to post a new story then

Please

Start your own new thread

That way you will attract more attention to your story and get more visitors and more help 

 

Thanks

Recommended Posts

Hi,

 

I have been issued with a £20 penalty fare at Liverpool Street. My journey was from Manor Park to Liverpool Street. I intended to renew my 7 day travel pass at Manor Park but was unable to do so as the train was approaching. In the past when there has been a long queue at Manor Park ticket office/the train was pulling in to the platform I have boarded the train and paid for my 7 day travel pass at Liverpool Street without any problems. On this occasion, I explained to the revenue protection staff that I did not have chance to purchase at Manor Park and needed to buy the 7 day pass. However, unlike in the past, I was informed that a £20 penalty fare had to be issued as I had boarded the train without a ticket. I approached the ticket revenue staff to pay for the ticket and the only difference to Greater Anglia trains is that my £21.30 would be paid at Liverpool Street as opposed to Manor Park. I will be making an appeal and wanted to ask if anybody had any advice/experience regarding this situation?

 

Many thanks in advance.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi,

 

I have been issued with a £20 penalty fare at Liverpool Street. My journey was from Manor Park to Liverpool Street. I intended to renew my 7 day travel pass at Manor Park but was unable to do so as the train was approaching.

 

There has recently been a move by many Rail Companies to stricter enforcement of the National Railway Byelaws (2005) and the rules regarding ticketing

 

In the scenario that you describe, running late for a train is not an acceptable excuse for boarding without a valid ticket. The National Rail Conditions of Carriage make clear that it is always up to the traveller to allow time to purchase a ticket before boarding where facilities are available.

 

I'm sorry to say that your appeal is very likely to fail, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't try.

Link to post
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...

hi, I just had the same thing happen to me at Victoria station. I had travelled in from Beckenham Junction and, as there was a queue at the ticket machine and a train pulled into the station, I boarded the train and decided to pay at Victoria instead as they have a 'fares to pay' office. I've done this in the past without any problem. However, on this occasion, when I got to the front of the queue at Victoria and was about to pay for my ticket I was approached by a revenue officer who demanded that I pay a penalty fine as I had travelled without a ticket. As the original poster says this is incredibly annoying as I had every intention to pay for my ticket (I was in the queue about to pay!) and I had done this in the past and no-one at Victoria had ever told me that I was doing anything wrong. If anyone has any thoughts on this or experience of appealing it would be interesting to hear from them. Many thanks

Link to post
Share on other sites

hi, I just had the same thing happen to me at Victoria station. I had travelled in from Beckenham Junction and, as there was a queue at the ticket machine and a train pulled into the station, I boarded the train and decided to pay at Victoria instead as they have a 'fares to pay' office. I've done this in the past without any problem. However, on this occasion, when I got to the front of the queue at Victoria and was about to pay for my ticket I was approached by a revenue officer who demanded that I pay a penalty fine as I had travelled without a ticket. As the original poster says this is incredibly annoying as I had every intention to pay for my ticket (I was in the queue about to pay!) and I had done this in the past and no-one at Victoria had ever told me that I was doing anything wrong. If anyone has any thoughts on this or experience of appealing it would be interesting to hear from them. Many thanks

 

Hello there.

 

My take on this from being a visitor to this forum but not working in the rail industry is that paying after the event has been tolerated until now, but for reasons I'm not sure of [maybe the recession] rail companies are taking a harder line and following the rules rather than allowing leaway. Also, anyone who has 'form' for not paying previously could be targeted, as I understand it.

 

The fares to pay office might be meant for people whose station had no facilities to pay on the day in question, rather than a queue that inconvenienced people who hadn't allowed enough time.

 

It's always worth appealing and a read around the forum will give you an idea of what to write.

 

My best, HB

Illegitimi non carborundum

 

 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

hi, I just had the same thing happen to me at Victoria station. I had travelled in from Beckenham Junction and, as there was a queue at the ticket machine and a train pulled into the station, I boarded the train and decided to pay at Victoria instead as they have a 'fares to pay' office. I've done this in the past without any problem. However, on this occasion, when I got to the front of the queue at Victoria and was about to pay for my ticket I was approached by a revenue officer who demanded that I pay a penalty fine as I had travelled without a ticket. As the original poster says this is incredibly annoying as I had every intention to pay for my ticket (I was in the queue about to pay!) and I had done this in the past and no-one at Victoria had ever told me that I was doing anything wrong. If anyone has any thoughts on this or experience of appealing it would be interesting to hear from them. Many thanks

 

Hi,

 

The post preceding yours made by "Old-CodJA" is fully applicable to your situation. The railways do not operate a "use now, pay later" scheme. The excess fares desk is provided for people travelling from unstaffed stations with no ticket issuing facilities who were genuinely unable to purchase a ticket before travelling. Some staff who man that window have no authority to do anything other than sell you a ticket, whilst others are authorised to issue Penalty Fares or even submit a report leading to a prosecution. The inconsistency is wholly irrelevant however, as your obligation to buy a ticket at the first opportunity is a constant. Thus, it is not a basis worth considering for an appeal.

 

I'm sure you're fully aware that the ticket office at Beckenham Junction is not for decoration and that you're supposed to pay if you have the opportunity to. What would you have done if there had been an inspection on board the train? Put it down to experience and ensure you leave more time in future!

Link to post
Share on other sites

hi, I just had the same thing happen to me at Victoria station. I had travelled in from Beckenham Junction and, as there was a queue at the ticket machine and a train pulled into the station, I boarded the train and decided to pay at Victoria instead as they have a 'fares to pay' office. I've done this in the past without any problem. However, on this occasion, when I got to the front of the queue at Victoria and was about to pay for my ticket I was approached by a revenue officer who demanded that I pay a penalty fine as I had travelled without a ticket. As the original poster says this is incredibly annoying as I had every intention to pay for my ticket (I was in the queue about to pay!) and I had done this in the past and no-one at Victoria had ever told me that I was doing anything wrong. If anyone has any thoughts on this or experience of appealing it would be interesting to hear from them. Many thanks

 

There's one other important point to be aware of and which will always be in the minds of Penalty Fares Appeals staff hearing the hoary old 'I was late and hadn't got time to queue' appeal

 

Why, if you had not got time to queue at Beckenham, did you board without a ticket knowing you would have to queue at Victoria where the queues are likely to be even longer with people arriving from a number of unstaffed locations?

 

The appeal staff will not allow that one and with such a frequent service it would have made more sense to get a ticket and catch the next train.

 

Many people board without buying a ticket and then don't pay from their starting point, but arrive at a terminus and attempt to offer a fare from the last stop of the train. A particularly silly practice in this day & age with CCTV everywhere and very efficient identity checking systems in place for police & rail staff alike. Penalty Fares are not the only risk either.

 

In recent Courts I have seen people attempting to avoid fares as low as £1.50 by this method, compound it by giving false details and get caught out, resulting in a criminal conviction and fines, compensation and costs totalling well over £500. Add to that people having to pay fines, costs etc totalling as much as £300 for just failing to get a ticket.

Edited by Old-CodJA
Link to post
Share on other sites

hello again, thanks to everyone for their feedback. I agree that its one to put down to experience (it was friday 13th after all!) and probably not worth the time or energy to pursue further. I just need to learn to slow down sometimes and not be in such a rush as it just seems to back fire! Thanks again

Link to post
Share on other sites

  • Recently Browsing   0 Caggers

    • No registered users viewing this page.

  • Have we helped you ...?


×
×
  • Create New...